Al Aqsa Flood and its consequences are shaking Israeli society from within. While Netanyahu’s government continues a brutal campaign of collective punishment against Gaza, some Israelis are questioning why their government is more committed to massacring Palestinians than effectively securing the swift release of hostages. As dissent spreads, the government is turning to fascist methods to repress those who speak out, effectively eliminating freedom of speech and arresting those who defy them. Israeli photojournalist Oren Ziv joins The Marc Steiner Show for a special discussion co-hosted with Israeli filmmaker Lia Tarachansky.

Studio: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: David Hebden

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Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Marc Steiner:

Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner and it’s great to have you all with us.

In this conversation, we’re going to continue our talks with people in Israel and Palestine who are involved in the struggle over there at this moment we’re going to talk today with Israelis in our continuing coverage of this Gaza war. Lia Tarachansky is a name from you know from Real News. She joins us from Toronto and she’s an award-winning filmmaker. Her film On the Side of the Road is an in-depth look at the denial in Israel of the Nakba. She runs Winchevsky School in Toronto, which is a social justice Hebrew school for children. And Lia, good to have you. Welcome back.

Lia Tarachansky:

Thank you for having me.

Marc Steiner:

And Oren Ziv is with us. He’s joining us from Israel. He’s co-founder of Activestills, which is a collaborative project with photographers using their stills to fight for social justice and to end Israel apartheid. He’s also a writer who’s work appears in many journals, and it has been a long day for him, so Oren, thank you for joining us as well.

Oren Ziv:

Thank you so much for having me.

Marc Steiner:

I know it’s late and you’ve been rolling. Let me just start with that. I want to get the little context. And Oren, if you just begin, tell us about your day, your last couple days, and the work you’ve been doing and where you’ve been.

Oren Ziv:

So for the last five weeks, I’ve been covering the events both in the south of Israel, but also in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and in the West Bank. Of course, as for many Israelis and Palestinians, the reality we knew before 7th of October completely changed.

Personally, I was waken up by sirens on October 7th, and I drove immediately to the south. Already on the way south, I understood this is not another round of violence. I don’t like this word, but it’s not another escalation because unfortunately we’re used to cover this event. But already on the way we understood it’s a big scale attack.

And while arriving to the south already on that day, the first hours of the Hamas led attack, we realized this is something different. The lack of police and army, it was clear the Israelis were not ready for it, the sights, the things we saw in [inaudible 00:02:37] and other cities of just bodies lying around, you understood as somebody who covers Israel and Palestine for almost 20 years, you know that here there’s, like on the Israeli side, there’s really good first responders and emergency forces. And when you see bodies lying for hours in the street, you understand the situation is not under control.

Of course, in the days after, we could also gain access to the communities, mostly communities that were attacked by Hamas and we can witness in firsthand the killing of civilians, the systematic killing of civilians. And of course, in the following weeks, we continue to follow this, but as well the situation inside Israel with the hostages, with the struggle to bring them back, but as well the huge escalation towards any criticizing voices towards the Israeli government, especially Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, the limitation, the very harsh limitation of freedom of speech, mass arrests, police preventing any kind of demonstrations, calling even very simple, humanistic things like calling for ceasefire or stop killing children for both sides. So we’ve seen that as well.

Of course, as Israeli journalist, since 2005 we’re not allowed to Gaza. And at this certain point also international journalists are not allowed to Gaza. So we could see some of the things happening in the Northern Gaza Strip from the border. And of course by talking to people, talking to our colleagues there that are working in unbearable conditions and taking huge risks and barely surviving the daily life, not to say also the commentation.

Marc Steiner:

You were about to say what, Lia?

Lia Tarachansky:

So Oren, before we break all those things down, I really want to focus on the things you were saying. I just was hoping we could take a step back. Out here outside of Israel and Palestine, the last five weeks, there’s been a kind of amplification of a lot of the issues that media is facing today in terms of access to actual facts as opposed to claims, perspective context, but also focus on reliable, on the ground reporting and I was just hoping that we could take a minute. Before October 7th, could you walk us through what a typical day in your life looked like as a journalist?

Oren Ziv:

So before October 7th, I cover political and social issues in Israel and Palestine. Of course, in the months before I was intensively covering the protests against Netanyahu and against the legal changes his extreme government was promoting. But of course also the situation, the daily reality in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, protests against occupation and settlements and just daily stories, a lot of settler violence and the displacement of vulnerable Palestinian communities in areas. See things that we see now increasing, but trends that we were seeing and documenting for many years and more specifically since the formation of this new extreme government last January.

Lia Tarachansky:

So because I’ve worked as a journalist in Israel, I know a lot of journalists that cover the conflict, but you’re kind of unique in that group in the sense that I’ve never seen anybody that covers as many things as you do. You’re on the ground everywhere all day long every day. And I was just wondering if you could just walk us through what does that look like? How do you get to everywhere? How do you do the kind of extremely high level journalism that you’re doing? What does a typical day in your life look like?

Oren Ziv:

So a lot of it is research and context because I worked for so many years, so I have contacts in different communities and activists and researchers and other groups. And before a lot of the work is research and being in contact with people, understanding where the stories, where things are going to happen and many times also arriving there and documenting before it becomes the story for the mainstream media. So a lot will be that, just going out meeting people, even if you don’t take photos or write about it, just to know people, to know new areas, new stories, new trends, new developments on the ground because the things are changing daily.

And then, of course, just yeah, trying to go to as many events as possible. If it’s demonstrations and if it other things or documentation of daily life, but I think by going outside to the field and being on the ground, you learn a lot of things. And many of the stories that I do and that we do on 972 Magazine is a result of this, of seeing the small or so-called small changes which develop to big political changes.

Marc Steiner:

I’d like to ask you both as well, picking up on some of that. This moment seems different than things in the past. You can dissuade me of that and our listeners, but when you see the destruction in Gaza, what is it now, 10, maybe 11,000 people killed, 70% of them being women and children, who knows who’s under the rubble. The huge death toll of now we’re saying 1,500 plus people in Israel itself, there’s so many kind of, you’ve got this right wing fundamentalist government sitting in Jerusalem and being attacked by liberation forces, but they happened to be pretty nationalistic and fundamentalists as well from the Islamic side.

And this just seems, and then with the repression that you read about inside of Israel, stopping demonstrations, not letting people oppose the war, all that’s going on as well and just Netanyahu and his government refusing to even think about a ceasefire. So I lay all that out just for a second because this just feels so different than other wars that I’ve covered, that I’ve been part of when it comes to Israel, Palestine.

Do you see that? Something has shifted it feels to me. Do you want to start, Lia?

Lia Tarachansky:

Watching this from the outside, for sure it feels catastrophic and cataclysmic in its scope. The last war covered on the ground was 2014, and I thought that that was the worst thing that we’ve experienced, [inaudible 00:09:59], Protective Edge War. But this war right now, it feels like 2014 on steroids, both in terms of the level of the catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and also how that intersects with all of the fascistic movements and moves that various bodies inside of Israel, including the government, have been pushing for in terms of repressing protests and certain voices and conglomerating power inside of Israel.

So this feels like an escalation on a level that we have never seen before. But that’s, like I said, from the outside. I’d love to hear, Oren, does it feel like that from the inside?

Oren Ziv:

For sure it feels very, very different and much harsher than we ever seen before in different levels. And of course, I cannot even imagine what it means to people living in Gaza. I can talk about the Israeli side more to start with.

I think it doesn’t matter what your political views are, I think most Israelis thought that despite the corrupted government, and we know what they’re focusing on and we know what their plan is, but most people thought that still the Israeli army will protect the Israeli citizens if really needed on the basic and that this war with Gaza that was billed with billions of dollars would protect them. And this was proven that it’s… It was proven wrong on October 7th, all this conception completely collapsed.

People, our friends, people we know were in the safe room for hours, more than 12 hours calling for rescue and nobody came. So there’s a… Before all the analysis and the context and what happened before and after on this day, but also the week since people feel there’s no state, nobody protected them. Afterwards, groups of civil volunteers were dealing with housing and food and helping many of them, the activists from the anti Netanyahu protest. So I think it’s a big shock. It’s also maybe the deadliest event since ’48 for Jewish Israelis. So before, everything is just… It’s a big shock for everyone.

Now, from that you can continue to the political changes and to things that are happening, but this is a-

Oren Ziv:

… political changes and to things aren’t happening. But this is a important feeling to understand. And unfortunately based on this true feeling now the cause for revenge and for occupying Gaza, raising Gaza and all the horrible things that we’re hearing, they’re based on this feeling of many Israelis.

As you know, I’ve been talking to many of the families of victims, of survivors, of people, which their family relatives are held in Gaza by Hamas or Islamic Jihad at the moment. And a few of them, or some of them, I cannot say the majority because it’s 240 families that have somebody kidnapped in Gaza and then the victims are around 1,300, but some of them at least are saying very clearly, “First of all, we don’t want our name to be used for revenge or for killing anyone.” And they oppose the mass bombard of Gaza and killing civilians, children, women and men. That’s first thing.

Second of all, they say that their message in order, this is what their beloved one, their family, their relatives that were murdered, believed, but also their belief is that on the long term there needs to be some solution that is political, that is diplomatic, that is… They’re using different words, but what they say that more force and more walls and more of the same won’t bring real security to the area in general, but also for them specifically. So they’re calling to change the narrative, to change the way Israel thinks. Unfortunately, the voices are not heard that much. They’re really big. They are interviewed in the media, but of course the all this wave of calling for revenge and calling for a second [foreign language 00:15:18] and other horrible things I don’t even want to repeat. Of course, their voices are not being heard enough. And what they fear, and also people like me fear, is that Netanyahu on the very basic level is not taking responsibility on the events, on the catastrophe that happened. And he says that this will happen after the war. And people fear that from that reason and for other reasons, he will just continue with this attack on Gaza for months or even more if he can. And people fear that he will just continue this to save himself and to keep the current political situation.

Marc Steiner:

So what do you both think about where this could actually go and what could happen? I mean, you’re seeing everything…

Lia Tarachansky:

Sorry. Before we go to where it’s going, I just want to go back for something that you said. Is that okay?

Marc Steiner:

Sure.

Lia Tarachansky:

Sorry, I’m not sure how to get your attention, Mike, so I’m just… So since what happened happened out here in the west, there’s been a lot of conspiracy theories that have started to run about what happened on October 7th. As you are very familiar with disinformation in Israel of what’s going on in Palestinian territories, it’s kind of normalized to the point of either total blackout or complete fake news. Something similar is happening out west where disinformation about what’s going on in Israel has led to the proliferation of conspiracy theories. And one of the prevalent ones is that the majority of the Israeli victims on October 7th were killed by Israeli forces, not by Hamas, Islamic Jihad. And I was just wondering, you were there on the ground the day of, can you tell us a little bit, what is your response to that kind of conspiracy theory?

Oren Ziv:

Yes. Thank you for the question. It’s very important. I can say, first of all, and I say it every time, first of all, I can say that for myself, I visited more than five communities that were attacked on October 7th, including the party, the music festival party. I talked to dozens of witnesses, dozens of witnesses, I spoke to rescue forces, I saw some of the documentation, not all of it. And I can say that first of all, civilians, in this attack, civilians were systematically targeted, not by a mistake or something that happened on the side, but as a main goal of this attack. At least this is the result on the ground. I saw personally bodies of people that were murdered in their houses, in their safe room, in their beds with civilian clothes. And I won’t go into graphic description, but this is a fact I saw. And I think also denying that or denying other things also prevents a real discussion about other things furthermore, but this is very important to understand and to realize.

Of course, there’s a lot of misinformation and fake news. I can say that some amount of the people, the Israeli, that were held by Hamas in the villages were probably killed by Israeli fire, but I cannot confirm the amount. I don’t think it’s all the cases. I don’t think it’s the majority of the cases. There has been some cases, but I’m saying it based on Israeli publication, open information that people said. But definitely it’s not even close to the majority. I think it still has to be investigated, and me and many other journalists are working on these topics and it might take a while from understandable reasons.

And I also want to say that of course there’s things that maybe were exaggerated, but the basic fact’s that Hamas fighters, but probably also civilians that enter from Gaza, killed other civilians and not in a small scale, let’s say, but in big scale is something that I can confirm from what I saw, but also from all the independent investigation I did in the recent weeks. I know it might not be easy to people to hear, but I think it’s also my obligation to say it without connection to maybe other analysis or bring the background, what happened before, what happened after, why did it happen, why did this catastrophe happen. But I have to be honest and say what I saw.

Marc Steiner:

Given what has actually just happened, what you’ve been describing, what you’ve been describing in your articles, these are a lot of civilian deaths. It’s not two armies clashing. You’ve got, as I said, when I looked at the numbers, 72, 73% of the Palestinians who have been killed in Gaza are women and children. There may be 20,000 or more Gazans who are wounded and hurt. They’re down to maybe two or three hospitals at most inside of Gaza. And then the destruction in Israel itself with all those innocent civilians killed in their homes, on the kibbutzim at the music festival. And then you’ve got this really authoritarian leaning right wing, fascist government, 28,000 injured. Thank you, Leah. And again, I said this is different than anything else I can remember in all my life. I don’t go back to ’48, but let do go back to ’56 and to ’67. This is somehow fundamentally really different. I’m curious what you both think analytically, living through it, what comes out of this. What are the possibilities at the end of this? If there will even be an end? Leah, you want to start? You can.

Lia Tarachansky:

So I want to focus just for a second on… The impact on Reza and the West Bank is horrific, but before we get there, I want to focus for a second on Israel. I think there was a couple of things that Owen said that are incredibly important. One is that the mass movement against Netanyahu in the months leading up to the war has eroded the remaining faith that the society of Israel has in this government or government in general, largely because of the corruption and the way that the governments have been responding. But the government responding to what happened on October 7th was kind of the nail in the coffin of the Israeli public faith in the government is the way that I’m understanding it.

Now, on the one hand, when you have a really dangerous alt-right government, it’s good that the public is losing faith in it. But in terms of the sustainability of day-to-day life in a country when a mass of the population doesn’t have faith in the government, that’s an incredibly dangerous thing. And it opens the door to what we are seeing now, which is the army of civilian militias, civilian Israeli militias supported by Ben-Gvir and other members of the parliament and the training by the Israeli army of various groups of civilian militias. And God knows what they’re going to do in terms of attacking Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I’m also seeing, since Netanyahu took over in 2009, all of his governments have been increasing repression and minimizing freedom of speech, minimizing right to protest, minimizing freedom of religion for non-Jews, and increasing the fascistic movements in Israel, and implementing fascistic tendencies in the government. What’s going on under the guise of war right now is evidence of all of these years of the move towards those trends. And I was just hoping that Owen can speak a little bit to that.

What does that mean in terms of what you’re seeing in terms of the freedom of Palestinian citizens of Israel to speak? Of Israelis who are critical of the government to speak? We are hearing rumors of mass firings of people who are critical, of mass arrests of people who post anything critical of the government on social media, or even just critical of war efforts. How do you see the manifestation of these trends in terms of repressive laws and repressive movements and the strengthening of non-governmental fascistic forces like civilian militias?

Oren Ziv:

Yes, thank you for the question. I think, well, most of the Israeli public was shocked from that attack and busy grieving and burying people and just going through. It seems the extreme settlers in the West Bank, but also the law enforcement services, the police, the courts were ready for this kind of event following May 2021, in which there was a uprising and protests in East Jerusalem and inside Israel of Palestinians. So they were ready for this moment in different levels. So the settlers, first of all, escalated immediately their attack on Palestinian communities, in area C places that were already under pressure. The settlers just understood nobody’s looking on what’s going on the West Bank nowadays, only public. Not the police and army that on normal days don’t protect Palestinians, but escort the settlers. Many of the settlers were recruited to reserve-

Oren Ziv:

Many of the settlers were recruited to reserve service in the army. So they got actually uniformed weapon and are serving in their district. And that just escalated their attacks going into Palestinian communities, threatening people, giving them deadlines to leave. And we’ve seen 13 communities that entirely left, and another five or six that partly left. We’re talking about more than 800 Palestinians in this few weeks. And it might seem a small number, but it’s in a very strategic and important areas of the West Bank. And it’s the continuing of their policy to separate the West Bank to different sections, and of course to prevent any independent Palestinian state, even theoretically. And of course, we’ve seen also increase in the killings by the Army. More than 150 Palestinians have been killed. It’s almost the number we’ve seen during all 2022, which was a year record since 2005, since second [inaudible 00:27:21].

And we’ve seen a few cases, six of them, if I’m not mistaken, of settlers killing Palestinians. And of course, some of these cases were documented and nobody’s held accountable. Meanwhile, inside Israel, the police, de facto, just canceled all the freedom of speech rights people had. Today in Tel Aviv, people were trying to held a peaceful, quiet vigil to protest political arrest. This morning, the police prevented Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, leaders of the Palestinian community inside Israel, former parliament members to protest in Nazareth. They arrested six or seven of them. And following that, there was a vigil in Tel Aviv in which the police arrested 18 activists doing a protest against political arrests. So de facto, and this is said openly by the chief of police and by the police, and said in court, they don’t allow any demonstrations, even if they’re very simplistic with very simple message, calling for a ceasefire, calling to end the violence, nothing to radical calling to freedom of speech.

They just don’t allow it. And they said it openly. The Supreme Court also kind of approved it, at least for protest in villages in town in state Israel. And also the police commander, today, one of the top Tel Aviv commanders said during the demo, this is a war and we won’t let you in sight and just order these policemen to arrest randomly people who were standing on the street without even signs or without chanting anything. So it’s not that before freedom of speech in Israel, for sure, for Palestinians was perfect far away from it. But we’ve seen a huge escalation that basically in addition to the arrest on the street, we’ve seen a mass campaign against any publication in Arabic on social media. So basically anything said in Arabic can be criminalized if it’s regarding the political situation, and for sure if it’s regarding Gaza.

So they open more than 200 investigations, and at least in 54 cases, the trial already began. And it goes from people who were showing some kind of sympathy or happiness towards the events of 7th of October to people who just oppose killing children in Gaza or show some solidarity of Gaza. And then other people just wrote things in Arabic that were not interpreted well or not translated correctly. But the result on the ground is that we barely see demonstrations. People are afraid to talk. People are being fired. So of course these trials, most of them haven’t been started. But even though the trials that started, there’s no conclusion yet in the courts. But already people are suffering from firing, from threatening by right wing and other people. People are being kicked out from university. So already, this is something we see it in every war, that there’s a attack on freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

But this time it’s completely different. People are really afraid to speak. I spoke to a Arab family from the north that lost their child. Their child was a medic. He was killed, murdered in the party in the South of Israel. And I went to interview them regarding their story, the story of their son that was Palestinian citizens of Israel, working there as a medic and saving people there before he was killed by Hamas. And when I asked them about political things, just general things, they were afraid to talk. They told me, “Even though we lost our son, we can be arrested at every moment.” And the fear is everywhere. People are really afraid to go out to the street. We saw it tonight that after in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, the police arrested people for protesting, calling for cease fire to end political arrest. Right-Wing settler had a small protest in center Tel Aviv calling to fully occupy Gaza, reestablish the settlements and the transferring all the Palestinians out of Gaza.

This protest, of course, was not dispersed, nobody was arrested. Because this is the current, and it’s not surprising in any way, but it escalated very quickly. Right-wing settlers can protest in Tel Aviv, calling for war crimes. They can commit war crimes in the West Bank. They’re not held accountable. And then people who are literally calling for peace and coexistence and to stop violence in both sides. Very, very simple messages. Not something too radical or hard to explain, are being literally arrested in the street. Things that we’ve seen before, but increased very, very quickly.

And my fear is that as we see from the past, rights that are taken in Israel are not brought back when this war or escalation or situation will end. And what we think that this crazy right with government, with all their allies are not going to change the situation quickly after the war ends, or if the situation is a bit more stable. Even on the Israeli side, I mean the catastrophe in Gaza, it’s not clear when they’re going to end it. Even if they end the war, the situation there is going to be catastrophic for many, many years. But in addition to that, the fear is that they will use this not to allow any criticism against the government.

Marc Steiner:

So before I come back to what I was asking earlier, I was thinking as you were speaking on just about your safety and the safety of other people who are covering this, journalists inside of Israel itself. And what you see, what your experience has been, your colleagues’ experiences have been, and how dangerous do you see in terms of your own freedom and freedom of the press and what’s happening in Israel at the moment?

Oren Ziv:

So yes, of course, it’s first important to mention that in Gaza, journalists were killed and injured. And I talked to my colleagues and they say, there’s nowhere safe anymore. In previous wars, offices of international media outlets were marked by the army, and the army knew not to bomb them. Of course, they did bomb them, like the office of AP in May 2021, but at least there was some feeling, there was some attempt of the Israelis not to kill journalists. Now this has changed completely, and we are hearing horrific stories from the journalists in Gaza, as I said, also working in unbearable conditions. In addition to that, I can say that inside Israel, especially for Palestinian journalists, the situation has been very, very dangerous. A, being attacked by right wing and even mainstream people while broadcasting from the South of Israel, but also from Central Israel. People are actively opening the phones, watching the channels in Arabic and looking for the presenters to attack them, to disturb them.

This is of course, backed up by the state that is trying to limit the broadcast of Al Jazeera and other channels with different claims. So we are seeing a situation that journalists are afraid to express themselves on social media, even on just doing their basic work. I can say that we try to move together as many journalists as possible, especially when we go to the West Bank or South of Israel. I can say that on the first day on October 7th, a few journalists, we got to a situation that we were shot at by probably Palestinian militants that were in the area. This is before we even understood the full situation. Before we understood, there was so many Palestinian militants in the Israeli villages. But as I said later on, the dangers internal, just covering demonstration, the police and right wing attacking, and they see also the media as target. It’s not that they believe in freedom of speech.

Marc Steiner:

Listen to everything you answered and the questions that we asked you and what you just responded about journalism. If you take that situation, look at the absolute devastation of Gaza, people being pushed further and further away from the Israeli border. What’s happening now in the West Bank, Palestinians being moved out. The next step will probably be the settlers taking over the land, where people just were pushed out. The repression going on with journalists, the repression going on politically right now that I’ve been reading about inside of Israel. This seems to me, as I said when we started this conversation, a very different moment than I’ve ever experienced before. It seems to me that the future looks really grim. I mean with a right-wing kind of fascistic nationalist government in charge, just getting stronger. So I’m curious, just how you see things unfolding and where the opposition comes from. I’d like to hear what both of you think about that, Orrin?

Oren Ziv:

Yes, unfortunately, you’re right. I don’t see optimistic future in the nearby future. I think it doesn’t seem that anyone wants to stop or is trying to stop Israel for doing those actions in the West Bank and of course in Gaza. And it’s very scary. It’s things we haven’t seen before and things are not under control. I think another thing that is scary that is even Israeli government are not really saying what their goals… Horrific as they can be. They’re not saying what their goals in this war in Gaza is. So Egypt made it very clear they’re not going to let any refugees from Gaza, they’re not going to allow a second Nakba to happen through their gates or through their territory. And even mainstream people are starting to ask, well, you go to a war, you risk the hostages. Soldiers are dying every day on the battlefield. And what’s the end game of that? Even if those log ins of Netanyahu and other ministers that it’s hard to believe they’re realistic. And I’m not talking even about the moral issues, but even the practice…

Oren Ziv:

I’m not talking even about the moral issues, but even the practical, eliminating Hamas and so on. Let’s say you do it. What do you do the day after with this extreme right wing government? It’s very clear, and this has been their policy for years, to separate between the West Bank and Gaza. And they said it themselves in different occasions that Hamas is good for them, because it keeps this separation from the Palestinian authority and prevents any diplomatic or political solution in the future.

So when these people are leading this war, it’s really not clear how or if or when it will end. I think with time, more and more Israelis, even the ones from the protest movement against Netanyahu, but by the way, many of them did go to reserve Army, to reserve service in the military. I think with the weeks going on, people are starting to realize that also internally in Israel, this is a political war and it’s not clear what the goals, what the target and when and how it’s going to end. So one thing I’m sure will happen is we will see again mass demonstrations against Netanyahu with more people joining, people we haven’t seen before protesting. That’s for sure something we’ll see in the very near future, in my opinion.

In addition to that, I said it before, I can just hope, although I know the chances are not very big, that out of this catastrophe people will realize that as in October 7th, and this is something that I’m hearing from some of the families, in October 7th, all these military force and the fences and cybersecurity, in the end of the day it didn’t protect the simple people who were living near the border. So we can only hope, and I know the chances are not big, that more people will realize that if we really want to live here one day, not even in some good situation, but just if you want to live here one day, there has to be another solution like this military solutions using force have been tried for so many years and failed, and hopefully people will understand or start to understand that there has to be something different.

What it is exactly, I think it’s too early and too hard to say at this moment. Not just for me, but for everyone on both sides. But I do hope, or at least I want to hope that something is possible, that out of this catastrophe that we haven’t seen in decades, and really there’s no words to describe it, that something else will grow.

I have to say that it’s very upsetting what’s happening also in inside Israel, because you feel really that people, that many people, or the majority, just chose violence. And of course maybe that’s understandable reaction after the catastrophic and horrific attack of October 7th. But it seems also many people just gave up and said, we’re just going to live in a cycle of violence and horrific crimes and just we’ll get used to it or whatever. And this is why we hear about erasing Gaza and second Nakba and other things.

But even internally in Israel, it seems that the government for sure, but some of the public have gave up the hostages, Netanyahu, it seems. I didn’t imagine that five weeks after October 7th we won’t see any small deal of prisoners exchange or hostages exchanged, at least the elderly people, the children and the women, the soldiers that were captured is maybe a different story. But I didn’t believe it as a Israeli that we won’t to see some kind of exchange and there’s huge support in the Israeli public. I talk to people who are right wing and they say, we support releasing all the Palestinian prisoners, all the 5,000 political prisoners that were held in Israel before October 7th in exchange of all the hostages.

This is something you couldn’t imagine before, but unfortunately it seems that even in this front, the government just decided to go on full of war that is risking also the hostages that are inside Gaza. And it’s not so clear if they will be rescued and how. So this is something that is very upsetting from all sides, that people choose to go in this path of violence and death.

Marc Steiner:

So before we have to close, Lih, did you want to have a closing thought?

Lia Tarachansky:

Well, the vast majority of the people in Gaza are refugees and the descendants of refugees from 1948. And I think that the level of destruction that the Israeli army hitting thousands of “targets” all over the Gaza’s trip, the level of destruction has been so total that the only thing that makes sense today, is to take a look at those places where those people were expelled from. The vast majority of the villages and towns, the Palestinians were expelled from in the Nakba are standing empty. There’s no towns on those places. And I think that after this war, the only thing that makes sense is to allow a mass return of Palestinian refugees and the imposition of democracy instead of the theocracy and desmocracy we’re seeing in Israel right now.

In terms of changing, fundamentally changing the political system in Israel and allowing the return of refugees, that’s as far as I can tell, that’s the only way that we can move forward. And that’s the only way to “destabilize” Hamas, which is a goal that the Israeli government has stated over and over again, but is doing nothing to achieve. And it’s the only way to actually end what we’re calling these cycles of violence, is the actual decolonization of the system of power that exists in Israel.

Marc Steiner:

And I’ve tried desperately myself to be optimistic about what could happen next, and it’s really difficult. I just heard what you said, Lih, and that is the only way. And when you see that the 10,000 Gazans who were killed, the five Israelis who were killed, I mean, it’s become… And the rise of this kind of neofascist government in Israel and being as authoritarian in some ways inside of Israel proper and as it compares to the killings taking place outside in the Palestinian worlds. It’s a very frightening moment. It truly is.

And first of all, I want to thank Lih Tarachansky. I always appreciate having you with me on the air and I doubly appreciate your thoughts and questions and pushing the conversation in directions that had to go. And I really appreciate you being part of this and Oren Ziv, I think that your work is phenomenal. We’re we are going to be connecting to both your works, so people who really should check out what they’re both doing. Your articles, your written pieces have just moved me and they moved the people I send them to as well. Incredible work. And I appreciate the bravery you showed in standing up and doing the work you’re doing in Israel right now. And I know it’s late in Israel, it’s getting close to midnight, and you probably have a long day tomorrow again.

Oren Ziv:

Thank you so much for having me and of course I’ll be happy to join again when things unfold and there’s more updates.

Marc Steiner:

I look forward, Oren I’ll be staying in touch. And Lih, again, thank you so much.

Lia Tarachansky:

Thank you so much for having me.

Oren Ziv:

Thank you, Lih. Thank you.

Marc Steiner:

So I thank all you out there listening today for joining us today and again, once again thanking Lih and Oren for being part of this. And it’s really late in Palestine, Israel, as I said. So thank you all for being part of this and thanks to Cameron Granadino, David Hebden for running the show, editing and getting it up in the air, the tireless work of Kayla Rivara making it all work behind the scene, and everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible.

And let me know what you think. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com. We’re going to do much more of this in the coming weeks. We’re not letting this go. And if you write me, I’m going to write you right back. And as I said, we’ll continue our coverage of Palestine and Israel. So thank you all for joining us today. It was great to have you all with us.

This post was originally published on The Real News Network.