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What will it take to reject fascism, before it’s too late? Masha Gessen and Jason Stanley are two leading experts on autocracy, and they’re sounding the alarm. They and their families have escaped totalitarian regimes and oppressive governments; today Gessen and Stanley are pulling back the curtain on the attacks against DEI, trans bodies, civil rights, higher education and more. Is authoritarianism here? Masha Gessen is an acclaimed Russian-American journalist, a Polk Award winning opinion writer for the New York Times and the author of “Surviving Autocracy” and “The Future is History: How Totalitarianism Reclaimed Russia.” Forced to leave Russia twice, in 2024, a Moscow court convicted them, in absentia to eight years in prison for their reporting on the war in Ukraine. Jason Stanley is a best-selling author and professor whose books include “Erasing History” and “How Fascism Works”. He recently left his teaching position at Yale University to relocate to Canada with his family; noting that he is a child of Jewish refugees who fled Nazi Germany. In this historic conversation — the first interview between Gessen and Stanley — the two explore how to be bold in our movements and envision a multi-ethnic democracy. Plus, a commentary from Laura.

“Trump has proposed a revived empire, a return to an imaginary past. The Democrats have proposed the way things are now, which are deeply unsatisfying and horribly anxiety provoking for a very large number of people. So we need a vision of a future that is more appealing than the imaginary past.” – Masha Gessen

“What I see now is this regime shifting the self understanding of America, from having these democratic ideals . . . God knows they’ve been imperfect, to a self identity as loving the United States because we’ve had these great men in our past, and we’ve conquered the West, and we can punch you in the nose. And that’s not a democratic project. That’s like what Putin is doing in Russia.” – Jason Stanley

Guests

• Masha Gessen: Opinion Columnist, The New York Times; Author, Surviving Autocracy; Distinguished Professor, Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism, CUNY
• Jason Stanley: Author, Erasing History & How Fascism Works; Professor, Munk School of Global Affairs, University of Toronto

Transcript

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Related Episodes, Articles, Uncut Conversations and More

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*Recommended books:

– “Surviving Autocracy” by Masha Gessen: Get the Book*

– “How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them” by Jason Stanley: Get the Book*

(*Bookshop is an online bookstore with a mission to financially support local, independent bookstores. The LF Show is an affiliate of bookshop.org and will receive a small commission if you click through and make a purchase.)

Related Laura Flanders Show Episodes:

•. Special Report- Decades After Bloody Sunday, Is Trump Taking Civil Rights Back to Before Selma in ‘65?:  Watch,  Audio Podcast:  Episode, and Uncut Conversation with Kimberlé Crenshaw, AAPF and Clifford Albright, Black Voters Matter

•. Journalists Maria Hinojosa & Chenjerai Kumanyika: Forced Removals, Foreign Detention, the War on Education & Free Speech: Watch,  Audio Podcast: Episode, and Uncut Conversation

•  The People v. DOGE: Jamie Raskin’s Strategy to Combat the Musk & Trump Power Grab:  Watch,  Audio Podcast:  Episode, and Uncut Conversation

Related Articles and Resources:

• The Fascism Expert at Yale Who’s Fleeing America, by Keziah Weir, March 31, 2025, Vanity Fair

•  American journalist Masha Gessen convicted in absentia by Russia for criticizing its military, by Anna Chernova, Lauren Kent and Rob Picket, July 16, 2024, CNN

•. Tyrants Use Racism and Patriarchy to Split Civil Society Apart and Dismantle Democracy, Excerpt of speech by Jason Stanley, Jacob Urowsky professor of philosophy at Yale University, recorded & produced by Melinda Tuhus, April 16, 2025, Between the Lines

•  The Hidden Motive Behind Trump’s Attacks on Trans People, by M. Gessen, March 17, 2025, The New York Times

•  The 10 tactics of fascism by Jason Stanley, 2022, Big Think – Watch

•  Welcome to Trump’s Mafia State: “Nice university you got there. Shame if something happened to it.” By M. Gessen, Produce by Vishakha Darbha, April 21, 2025, The New York Times

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