The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Mansa Musa:

Welcome to this edition of Rattling the Bars. I’m your host, Mansa Musa. Today we’re talking about detention centers, zombie prisons, and alligator Alcatraz. Joining me today is Shannon Heffernan, an award-winning reporter and fiction writer whose works focused on prisons and jails across the United States. Her recent reporting include two major pieces. The next alligator Alcatraz could be in your state, which looks at the controversial ICE Detention Project in Florida and zombie prisons about how ICE is bringing shuttered facilities back to life. Shannon, welcome to Rallying the Bars.

Shannon Heffernan:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.

Mansa Musa:

Let’s start with the next alligator. Alcatraz could be in your state. Okay. So construction on Alligator Alcatraz was stopped because a lawsuit was filed saying it had a environmental detriment, and so it was stopped. Based on that, walk us through how that came about and what’s going on with that now.

Shannon Heffernan:

Sure. So a couple of groups, some environmental groups as well as some indigenous tribes. Our a indigenous tribe bought a lawsuit against Alligator Alcatraz because of environmental concerns. They essentially said, this is a federal facility, it should follow federal laws, and it’s not done the proper environmental review. Originally, a court did halt that. However, very recently an appeals court has lifted the halt on alligator Alcatraz, so it moves forward. All of this is going to continue to play out in courts. We don’t know where it will land for alligator Alcatraz, but I do believe that this all has implications beyond what’s happening in Florida for states across the country. And no matter what happens at Alligator Alcatraz, I think it gives us some insight into the strategies that the federal government wants to use to increase immigration detention across the United States.

Mansa Musa:

In terms of the conditions in alligator Alcaraz, I recall reading some things where one is beyond the environmental aspect of it, the impact it has on environment, but the impact it has on human, human beings, people that’s being detained in there. And I seen a picture of how it’s designed and the way it’s designed is designed like with multiple bunks and cages and tents. In your report and in your gathering your information, what can you say about the conditions of alligator ture?

Shannon Heffernan:

Yeah, there’s been some pretty big complaints about the human conditions there. You’ve had people complaining about food not being edible. You’ve had people complain about their access to legal representation. You’ve also had people complaining about how difficult it is to even find if somebody is incarcerated at alligator Alcatraz. They weren’t showing up in the federal system. They also weren’t showing up in the state system. So it was hard to locate folks. It became this kind of black hole. The federal government has denied some of those claims in terms of how bad the living conditions are, but there have been multiple reports from people who are incarcerated there as well as civil rights lawyers representing their case,

Mansa Musa:

Talk about the law that gives them the right to detain people, and if you can juxtapose that against what is actually taking place now.

Shannon Heffernan:

Yeah, so I think this is a really important point that I heard from legal scholars I’ve been speaking to about immigration detention. Technically, immigration detention is not supposed to be punishment. It is different in that way from what you see in the criminal system, at least in terms of the law. That said, you see these places not only having troubling conditions like you’ve mentioned, but being given these names that raise the specter of them being frightening places. Alligator Alcatraz, you now see that they want to send people to Angola, a place that has a long history of problems and lots of associations with abusive treatment or the so-called speedway slammer in Indiana. So I think that it seems to be clear that officials are really raising the spectra of these places, being places you don’t want to go, that would be punitive. So I do think there’s that gap between what you hear legal scholars saying immigration detention should be, and then actually how it plays out and what it does.

Mansa Musa:

And you mentioned speedway slammer, and then the fact that AIN going is known for its plantation style facilities, but more importantly, we had the opportunity to talk to some people relative to crop dusting and when they come around and crop dust, whether or not it has an effect on going into the cell blocks. And so in terms of your investigation, how do you see that playing out? Because you mentioned earlier that this what we see now taking place in alligator Alcatraz is ominous a whisk to come down the pipe in terms. Talk about that.

Shannon Heffernan:

So I mean, I think that there’s a couple of things to consider. I mean, I think generally there’s the issue of detention increasing across the United States and what that means for conditions. But specifically what I meant when I talked about that is there’s a strategy that the federal government is now using to specifically get state governments involved in alligator Alcatraz. As I said, this is a state run facility. You see what’s happening in Indiana, in Nebraska with the so-called corn husker clink with Angola and Louisiana, that there are these collaborations with states to do that. And so why would that matter? Why would that matter? Right. Well, when it’s fuzzy who’s in control, a lot of the experts I spoke to about this says that makes accountability much harder. It sets up conditions that are really ripe for abuse, and we already know that there have been problems with conditions and immigration detentions for a long time, and I think what folks are arguing is this just creates a really fertile ground for that to happen even more and an even more extreme way. The collaboration with states, I think also could potentially free up resources for the federal government to do this even more other places. You’ve had the DHS secretary, Christie Noam saying that this strategy of working with states is actually becoming her preferred method instead of working with private prisons. And why is that? Because she says she thinks it’s cheaper, she thinks it’s more efficient. Instead of having to sign long-term contracts, she can sign these shorter term contracts.

She didn’t say this now, but this is me, at least she hasn’t said it that I’m aware of. It also would give her access to a workforce that might not otherwise be available because it comes from the state or buildings that might not otherwise be available because their own bar state. So if the United States government really wants to up the number of people who they’re detaining and then eventually deporting, which they’ve said that is their goal, collaborating with states on this level is something that can help them do that. I think it’s really important to note that this is unprecedented. Local governments have played a role and immigration detention in the past. For example, local jails rent out their beds to ice, but you haven’t really seen it on this scale. We’re talking about massive, massive facilities that are supposedly under the state’s control, although I think that there’s some complications and nuance there about how much they’re under the state versus the federal control.

So this is something we’ve not really seen at this scale before in the United States and is definitely worth paying attention to. I also think it speaks to a larger idea that I think we really need to be wrestling with and thinking about, which is how our country’s history of mass incarceration is actually deeply tied to what you see happening with immigration right now. These facilities are available and built because the United States has a long history of incarcerating large numbers of people. When you saw criminal justice reforms in the last decade, some of those facilities began to be shut down, either because places were shrinking, their prison population changes to parole or sentencing, or because the facilities were simply deemed too terrible, too harsh of places to put humans into. But after those facilities closed, the buildings weren’t destroyed and now you’re seeing them reanimate it for use by immigration detention.

And I think that’s really important to notice because in the same way that they’re being moved from the criminal system to the immigration system right now, once this system is built, once the system is fortified, you can see it being deployed against other populations. Once the infrastructure is there, there are financial incentives to keep them going. So when we see immigration detention getting bigger and bigger, I think there’s a question of like, well, what does that mean for the next decade in the United States? I think it’s something, it’s going to be a legacy that is likely to continue beyond just this present moment.

Mansa Musa:

Do immigrants people that’s locked up under the Immigration Nationalization Act, do they have constitutional rights? Do they have the protection under the eighth amendment, the cruel, unused upon the 14th due process, 14th amendment due process? Do they have these rights of once they’re locked up, do they have the same rights that United States citizen had or are they just put detained and then when they determine where they’re going to send ’em, they pack ’em up and fly ’em to wherever state or country they want to take ’em to?

Shannon Heffernan:

So there are standards that are supposed to be met in these detention centers. I think the question is, regardless of what the standards are, if you don’t have oversight, then it doesn’t matter. If you don’t have enforcement, then it doesn’t matter. And we’ve seen a real decimation of the systems that have historically provided oversight in these facilities. If you can’t prove what’s happening inside, it becomes really difficult to hold those systems accountable. And in addition to some of the groups that were supposed to watch dog detention centers shrinking or ending, you also have lawyers less able to access their clients in these facilities, which means the word is getting out less about what’s happening there. So I think it’s a real challenge and it’ll become an increasing challenge to make sure that what’s happening inside these detention centers is meeting basic humanitarian standards.

Mansa Musa:

And I think that based on everything that’s being done, and I did 48 years in prison before I got out, and I did, and I served time in some antiquated elaborated involvements, but I’m looking at what’s going on here. These ain’t no detention. These are basically concentration camps. They’re holding them, pinning, sending them somewhere else, but they’re holding them under the most inhumane conditions known to man at this time. But let’s talk about how the next article you wrote was Zombie Prison. I want to shift there, and you made very astute observation on this. What we’re seeing now is how their practice is in terms of how they establish this prison industrial complex, the infrastructure, how they mapping it out in terms of finding places, putting people, finding places, putting people, finding places, putting people, talk about the zombie prison, how ice detention is raising troubled facilities from the dead.

Shannon Heffernan:

Yeah, so we’ve seen a number of facilities that used to be prisons and got closed down reopening now as ice detention centers. And I think that’s important because in some cases these facilities closed for a reason. Either the infrastructure is in poor shape or the staff there were treating people poorly, for example. And now I think the real question is how are they going to ensure that’s not repeated for immigrants? I also think that that really illustrates the question of detention’s not supposed to be punishment.

Then why are places that were prisons able to handle these populations? Why are they equipped? Why are the places that we’re going to send these folks? As you know from your understanding of prisons, a lot of these facilities are in fairly remote locations. They’re hard to get medical care too. They’re hard to get translators to, they’re hard to get legal help to. So just by the geographic location, you’re already setting up a real challenge in terms of people getting what they need. I want to go back to something you said before, which is you were talking about the poor conditions in these places before they deport people. I think there’s a real connection between the conditions and deportations themselves. We’ve spoken to immigrants who are inside some of these facilities who want to stay in the United States and who may even have credible legal paths to staying in the United States, but they’re choosing to leave.

They’re choosing deportation over those legal battles because they are so disturbed by the conditions that they’re experiencing that they want to leave and they want to get out. So the conditions have, in the same way that you have people talk about people confessing to crimes that they maybe do not commit because they want to get out of jail, right? Because bail’s not available to them. The conditions are so terrible. I would say this is sort of analogous to that. People who may have credible claims to stay in the United States choosing to leave anyways because the conditions are so abysmal that they don’t feel like they can stay there safely.

Mansa Musa:

Talk about where we stand in terms of advocacy, what we have to do or what people need to do, what people need to understand about fighting back. Because I think Angela Davis say, if they come for me in the morning, they’ll come for you night. So the coming is coming. It’s just a matter of how they change the narrative on how they identify why a person or class of people fit up under the statute to say that you are a danger to the security of the United States, therefore you can be detained as an illegal immigrant even though you are a United States. Talk about the pushback, how we fight back or how to fight back.

Shannon Heffernan:

As you alluded to the so-called big, beautiful Bill gave a huge infusion of cash into immigration detention and deportation. So I suspect we’re going to continue to see efforts to grow this machinery from the federal government. I think one big challenge that advocates and activists are up against is historically under other administrations, immigration, detention and deportation was also a problem. This has gone across both parties. It’s not just unique to the Trump administration, but one thing that I think was really different is some other administrations would be shamed into action when there were reports of bad humanitarian treatment. They didn’t want that to be what it appeared to be on the outside. They wanted to appear friendly and nice. So if activists or advocates or the media showed bad conditions, there would be some thought that that would result in an action because they didn’t want to be perceived that way. But I think we’re under an administration now where that specter of it being terrible, that specter of it being cruel is something that they’re less afraid of. I mean, you have them naming these facilities, things like alligator, Raz,

Which have a connotation of the conditions themselves being poor. So if you’ve relied on a strategy in the past that if you expose harm, if you expose things being terrible, that’s going to result in action, I think that’s a strategy that you’re going to see work a little differently now under the current administration, and it’s going to require different ways of operating for activists and advocates. I think another challenge is just moving at a really, really quick speed. How quickly the administration has been able to get these places up and running is really quite astounding. Now, I say all that with those challenges. I do think it’s also important to note that this has gotten a lot of attention. You have seen a lot of activists and advocates being motivated towards action. So people are in motion across the United States resisting this and showing

Mansa Musa:

Up. And I think another problem that we are confronted with as we moved in opposition, you hit on it the speed at which they’re doing it, but in every regard in terms of the amount of money they put into it and the countries that they looking at putting money into these countries, telling them like El Salvador was the test case and say, I’m going to give you money to house these prisons. I’m going to give you money. And came out and said, yeah, I’m with this. Whatever you want to send, however you want to send. Now they talking about going to different African countries or other third world countries to pay them to take people. Talk about going forward, how do we look at it from the legal landscape? Because right now, as it stands right now, it seems, and I raised this earlier, it seems like the courts don’t have jurisdiction over the treatment aspect of it that’s being litigated. It is cruel and unusual punishment. It’s inhumane. So is it a United Nation thing or is what? Talk about that. This is mind boggling. I know our audience would probably saying the same thing if this was done to United States prisoners, at some point in time the court going to intervene because we got constitutional rights to be treated a certain way. But when it comes to a person that’s they done dub illegal immigrant, a non-citizen to that non citizenship mean I can treat you like inhuman and with impunity.

Shannon Heffernan:

So there are legal challenges that have been brought and will play out in the courts, and I suspect that will continue. I think one of the things you really have to think about when you’re talking about these legal challenges is the law is created by humans and the law is enforced by people in power. And what the law means is decided by courts, and as you’ve seen some of these cases work their way up, you will see the courts siding with where their political affiliations are. I mean, courts aren’t supposed to do that, but there’s a range in what judges can decide. So we know what the Supreme Court looks like right now as these cases reached that the question is regardless of how the law has been interpreted in the past, what is the law itself capable of doing right now? In the same way that I talked about the specter of cruelty being a little bit differently, I also think the specter of what the law will and won’t do is something that’s really in flux right now under the current administration. So I think that’s something that definitely is worth paying attention to.

Mansa Musa:

And as we close out, tell our audience how they can stay on top of your reporting because it’s definitely impactful in terms of really focusing on the issues and informing people about what is the real news versus fake news. So talk, how can our audience stay intact?

Shannon Heffernan:

Sure. So you can read my work@themarshallproject.org. I’m also on Blue Sky, and we would love to hear from all of you about what you’re seeing on the ground and what kinds of recording you think we need to continue to do. We are especially interested in looking at ways that the criminal justice system overlaps with the immigration system because we think that’s going to be really key going forward.

Mansa Musa:

Alright, thank you. And as you said earlier, I just want to close on this point. So we ask that as you look at this information that Shannon put out, we ask that you follow her lead in terms of letting them know some of the things that are going on with your views on these things, what you witnessing.

But more importantly, we ask that you take a critical look at what’s going on in this country because it’s not a matter of what I like someone or don’t like someone, it’s a matter of whether or not a person should be treated as a human being. This is about treating people as human beings. It’s not about treating people as animals because they’re not United States citizens. This is about treating people as human beings, what the Statue of Liberty says, the Statue of Liberty right now would be taking the mass off and running down the water. As you see what’s going on in this country, we ask that you continue to support the real news and rally the bar. We ask that you look at this information, give your views on it, critique it, and let us know what you think. And we’ll definitely echo your voice because we don’t give you a voice. We just turn the volume up on your voice.