The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. An updated version will be made available as soon as possible.

Mansa Musa:
Welcome to this edition of Rattling the Bars. I’m your host, Mansa Musa. October the 28th. Wisconsin State legislators on both sides of the aisle voted in favor of a sweeping proposal by governor of Wisconsin, Tony Evers, to overhaul the state correctional facilities in this overhaul package. In theory, the governor want to close some prisons, revamp some, create some mechanisms in some that will lead to upon people being released, being stabilized, and being coming productive members of society. Now we’re talking about Wisconsin, but more importantly, we talking about Green Bay Correctional Institution. We think about Green Bay, we think about the Cheesehead, we think about Bar Star, we think about Vince Lombardi. We think about discount check Brett Far, but here we’re talking about a part of Wisconsin that you’ll never hear about beyond Wisconsin. So the question that we’re proposing today is what the governor’s proposing.
Is this theory or is this going be a cutting edge change in the thinking of the legislators and the state of Wisconsin as it relate to the criminal injustice system? Join me today to help unpack. This is Sean Wilson of dream.org. Sean, 17 years in Wisconsin Prison, a system that’s known for high racial disparities. Sean, come home to a reality. Many formerly incarcerated individuals come home to that. It’s nothing there for them or it’s nothing there for us that’s going to give us the footing to stabilize ourselves. So in that regard, we create create our own mechanism. We know what we need to become stable members of society, and more importantly, productive member of society. So Sean, welcome to Rattling the Bars.

Sean Wilson:
Thank you for having me, brother. How are you?

Mansa Musa:
I’m doing great. And how are you doing today?

Sean Wilson:
I’m doing good, man. Excited to hop on and have this conversation about all things Wisconsin as it relates to criminal justice reform and what is happening throughout the country around criminal justice reform.

Mansa Musa:
Okay, so let’s talk about, so we already unpacked the fact that you served time, you did 17 years in Wisconsin Prison criminal justice system. Alright, but upon being released, you’ve networked with other like-minded people to create an organization. Talk about that part of your journey. First, how did you get in this space and why did you get in that space?

Sean Wilson:
Absolutely. Well, as you said, Sean Wilson, senior director of organizing and partnerships@dream.org, this is a national nonprofit that works at the intersection of climate justice and economic opportunity. About nine years ago, I was released from prison. I often say that I got out of prison before I got out of prison, which means I got out mentally before I got out physically. And while I was incarcerated, I realized that this was not life. This was not something that any human being should have to experience. This is not something that any human being should have to have to conform to as a punishment for their indiscretion, right? I think our justice system is operating as it intended to operate, which is to break the spirit of human beings. It is not restorative, it’s not rehabilitating. And so while I found myself in that environment, I had the opportunity to meet so many brothers who had instilled in me what freedom looks like, what liberation looks like, and I began to reimagine how I need to show up in the world as a black man for myself, my family, and my community in the world at large.
And so I came home and was really committed to being an asset to my community As a result of being a detriment. Once upon a time and I began to mentor young people, I began to volunteer and I began to really understand what was needed in this space that we call criminal justice reform. What I recognized that we needed was the voices of individuals who are most impacted by the issue of mass incarceration. I began to amplify my voice. I began to share my story, and as a result of that, I was given the opportunity to work for several organizations who have done advocacy work in this space for several years, starting out with Youth Justice Milwaukee and Urban Underground, where we focused on juvenile justice. And then I went on to the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin where I had the opportunity to lead a statewide campaign. And now I’m here at dream.org where I oversee strategic organizing and grassroots partnerships.

Mansa Musa:
Okay, so then let’s talk about when I opened up, I talked about that the legislative body of Wisconsin gave the governor cosign or just sanctioned his proposal for prison reform. Reform in and of itself is a problematic for me, but let’s stay in this space right here. Okay, so talk about, now we’re talking about prisons, we’re talking about ’em closing or revamping a prison that building 18 hundreds. So we’re talking about what exactly is that supposed to look like? Give us the snapshot of what they’re saying before you unpack on what it should be and what it will be.

Sean Wilson:
Yeah, so I think when we think about, or when we read about or hear about the governor’s plan, right? Governor Evers Prison or corrections overhaul, I think what we’re really talking about is this, right? Wisconsin, they’re still running prisons that were built in the 18 hundreds. As you mentioned, green Bay Correctional Institution in Wall Pond are literally facilities that are falling apart, right? Walls are crumbling, the ventilation is terrible and it’s unsafe for everyone around that is inside. I’ve been in Green Bay and anyone that has spent time in Green Bay know that it is time for this facility to close. We all know what that air feels like right in the summertime. We know what that cold feels like in the wintertime, and we don’t believe any human being incarcerated or guardian, them should have to live like that. And so the governor’s plan essentially is a four year plan.
I believe it was originally a six year plan because I think the conversation started around 2023. But the conclusion of the plan supposed to conclude in 2029. But basically the plan tries to modernize the system. And what it does is it finally moves to close Green Bay Correctional Institution, which is long past due. One, it moves to close Lincoln Hills and Copper Lakes, which is facilities for young people. The plan is to replace that facility with a newer, safer adult run facility. Third, the plan attempts to convert Wall Pond from a maximum security to a medium security facility that is focused on job training and rehabilitation. And then it reorganizes and repurposes other prisons like Stanley Correctional Facility, which is what we call a medium max. I was also in Stanley. And then it also plans to add some additional beds to this prison here in Wisconsin called Sanger B. Sanger B is like a minimum facility, and I believe that the plan is to add 200 additional beds to that prison, but ultimately the plan states that it will reduce capacity by about 700 beds, which is good, right? That’s progress, in my opinion. It’s slow progress, but

Mansa Musa:
Progress. Nevertheless,

Sean Wilson:
It’s progress. But for the people living and working inside those walls, slow is another word for more suffering. And I think that this is where we need political urgency. This is where leadership matters because I don’t believe, nor do I think we should wait until 2029 to act. I don’t think Wisconsin can afford to drag its feet while people are dying, while staff are burning out and communities are paying the price. So I think it is high time for there to be some political urgency around the closure of these prisons and a real committed goal to reduce Wisconsin’s prison population.

Mansa Musa:
This,
Okay. Alright. The fact that, and this has been a problem throughout this country, you have, right? In the federal government, they passed legislation for oversight of the Federal Bureau of Prisons and Congress passed the bill. President Biden signed it, but they didn’t fund it. So it’s like being at Malcolm X say, don’t call me a D when I’m sitting at the table with an empty plate. So that’s the same thing, but don’t say this is law when it’s not being funded. So what they give the money for, they gave the money, they give the money for a proposal that’s going to be implemented, or is this a money to be studied? And has this been done before? Have Wisconsin legislator came together before around reform and change only to go back to status quo?

Sean Wilson:
I mean, honestly, I believe that the plan is viable, right? I think, what is it that, I think it was Huey New who said that the revolutionary is always optimistic. And so I’m optimistic and believe that Governor Evers’ prison overhaul plan can be viable, but it comes with significant ifs and caveats. And so I think that because Wisconsin has not tucking this type of step to do something like this, I think that this is progress. The fact that money has been approved for them to begin closing prisons and retrofitting and repurposing other prisons because that money has been approved and you have some form of bipartisan support of this effort, I think that it is definitely possible. But it’s going to take community organizing. It’s going to take political bravery to ensure that this does not become a construction project. That it actually begins to reduce the capacity of Wisconsin state prisons and return people home to their families and their loved ones.

Mansa Musa:
Right. Okay.

Sean Wilson:
That’s what I believe.

Mansa Musa:
Okay. Talk about this then. Alright, because all this is predicated on everything that’s being done with the Wisconsin legislator and the governor and corrections and the criminal I justice system and the plantation system. Everything’s being done in terms of changing the landscape as it exists that reduce the prison population, create a pipeline for ’em to get back out in society. So where in that plan, and because you in dream.org and you involved with a lot of organizations, where is it at in that plan that it’s going to be reclamation back into society and family reunification? Where prisons going to go in Maryland, they got halfway houses, they got, when you finish, you get out progress from max medium minimum to pre-release. Is that something that’s going to be existence? Is the people sitting right now and the maximum security prisons got hope that, oh man, the governor getting ready to do this so I can see myself being in camp or pre-release in two years, I dream.org, got these jobs ready, I can see myself being able to save some money and get back with my family? Or is it Well, that’s what they say. We’ll see.

Sean Wilson:
Yeah. I think with any type of plan of this magnitude for those individuals who are incarcerated, whenever this comes across the news screen, whenever it comes in the mail that, hey, the legislature just passed the bill that’s going to do X, Y, Z, it’s always met with a level of skepticism. But I think that as long as the state remains disciplined, I think if that funding stays in place and if the state executes on the reforms that they have mentioned in the plan around staffing, around programming about population management, I think that this is something that can actually have the desired effect and that the individuals who are awaiting the outcome of this plan can actually see the realization of it where they come home sooner to their families and their loved ones. They get access to the programming that’s going to prepare them for their release.
So I think that there’s cautious optimism for individuals who are currently incarcerated around this plan. However, if those plans falter and funding dries up, I mean, we are in the midst of a governor’s race. I mean the Governor Evers isn’t running for reelection and we all have a new governor come 2026. So you have a possibility of there being a shift in funding that the new governor may change directions, delays may halt this plan, the risk is under delivering or it be becoming a shell of its promise right now. There’s a great deal of hope around it, but again, it all boils down to community organizing. It all boils down to constituents being involved in the process, asking questions of gubernatorial candidates who are running for governor, how they feel about the plan, how will they ensure that the plan moves forward as it’s laid out, and how would they ensure that the community and those most impacted are at the table to ensure that it stays on track?

Mansa Musa:
Okay, let me ask you this again, okay, because you outlined that’s what need to be done, oversight. So what are your organization doing to ensure that oversight? Because like you said, the governor races up coming up, you have a high percentage of poor brown, black, brown people just populate the prison population, so they coming out of a certain part of Wisconsin, they’re coming from certain segments of the population. What are y’all doing to ensure that or the position y’all ourselves to make sure that the promise, it’s not a promissory note that’s forward on being presented, but it’s actually a promise kept?

Sean Wilson:
Absolutely. So Wisconsin is the priority state for dream.org. It’s also my home state. I’ve been organizing in this state for the last 10 years. And so we’re continuing to have conversations with all of the stakeholders. We’re continuing to educate the community on why these facilities need to be shut down. I just actually wrote op-ed in the Wisconsin Examiner about how I lived in Green Bay in my experience in Green Bay over 25 years ago in comparison to Green Bay. Today is all the more reason why this facility should be shut down. And so I think what we have to do as constituents of this state, as stakeholders who live in this state, what we must do first and foremost is ensure that we’re holding these folks’ feet to the fire, that we’re staying informed and updated on the progress and that we are also staying informed on what is actually taking place each day, each week, and each month to ensure that this plan goes forth as is outlined. And also we’re going to start initiating some conversations on how do we expedite this plan? Right?

Mansa Musa:
Okay.

Sean Wilson:
Oftentimes with these type of plans, we want to drag our foot because it’s uncomfortable. These are uncomfortable conversations when you’re talking about closing down prisons. The general public has a certain perception about prisons. And so when you’re talking about closing down prisons, the first reaction or response that the general public have if they don’t have any proximity to this system at all is, oh, what are we going to do with all of the quote criminals? Or will our communities be safe if we’re going to close down prisons? And so we have that also that we have to combat as these plans continue to unfurl.

Mansa Musa:
Okay, let me ask this, Sean. Alright, and unpack this for our boys. I’m going to give you an example. In Maryland, you have Western Maryland and you have the northern part of Maryland. So in the northern part is where you have your concentration of urban, urban areas or it’s not suburban, it’s suburban, it’s more urban than suburban. But in the rural part of where the prisons at is the entire infrastructure is supported by the prison. So the people that runs those prisons, they come out in the little rural communities, that’s their livelihood. They got a documentary called Attica to talk about the Attica Rebellion. And in that documentary, the people, when they interviewed the people from Attica, this is what the woman said. And so this is what I want you to address. This is what the woman said. The woman said the Attica is the industry for upstate New York.
Is the Wisconsin prisons the ones that’s located outside of the urban area or are all of ’em located in the urban? Who is the employers, who has got the jobs, who’s doing the work? Is it brown, black colored people or is it a particular county where you have the entire infrastructure jobs created by the prison? Now everything come supermarkets, everything come into existence because you got a steady repression proof income because as long as you got people committing crime, you got prison, you got a place for ’em to go. As long as you got a place for ’em to go, you got somebody’s getting a paycheck to make sure they stay where they at. Talk about that.

Sean Wilson:
Yeah, I think, and I heard this a while ago, right? Actually I heard it while I was in prison, but I heard that a lot of these prisons are built in poor, rural, white areas. And when you build a prison in these poor rural areas, you move lower class into the middle class within five years of the building of these new prisons. And so majority of the employees in a lot of these prisons throughout northern Wisconsin are white, right? Prison has replaced the firm. And so yes, prisons are the heart of the employer base in these areas and absolutely people in communities will be impacted by the closure and repurposing of a lot of these prisons. And that’s completely okay because black and brown communities are impacted by the building of these facilities, by the maintaining of these facilities. So you have two communities that are harmed as a result of these prisons. But I remember a while ago I was at a conference and we were in a round table discussion and I heard this woman say that we don’t start fires to employ more firefighters. So we don’t need to keep prisons open to keep people employed.
The same way that we are introducing programs that upskill people so that they are able to come home prepared and reenter society. These same prison guards can also undergo training to go into a different career field. So we don’t have to, in my opinion, spend too much time worried about people losing their jobs. That’s a reality. You are working for a system that is causing a significant amount of harm, not only to the incarcerated, but to the guards themselves. The guards themselves are incarcerated and they are impacted psychologically as well by the eight hours, the 16 hour shifts that they have to serve in these prisons. So I strongly support and encourage as we begin to close down these facilities, we’re also thinking about how do we create another economic driver that employs these guards so that they can care for and support their family the same way that the families that these individuals who are incarcerated are coming from are impacted. We understand that people who are working in these prisons, they themselves and their families are also impacted by it as well.

Mansa Musa:
Alright, so in every regard, alright, so that’s what you say and that’s what should be going on. But in terms of the governor saying he invest in this, do you think that he’s sincere or that the state legislators are sincere in recognizing the impact of the prison industrial complex in Wisconsin in Milwaukee, recognizing that it’s the problematic and that it might be like causing taxpayers money or it’s just convenient conversation? Because when them rural areas, they accustomed to every two weeks, I don’t care how much debt they in, I don’t care how much money they don’t have every two weeks, they know as long as they got 1500 people living in a space that’s designed for 900, long as they know they got that, then they know they got a check they can pay to continue, they can pay to continue to stay in debt. I’m just trying to see if this is a reality or if it’s not, then what’s y’all going to be? Y’all respond because y’all are the ones that’s organizing the people that’s affected by, how do you get the people that’s when they start crying about losing their job? How do y’all network with them or what do y’all think it should be even approached?

Sean Wilson:
Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I definitely say that the governor, in my opinion, I know him, I’ve had some conversations with him. He appointed me as a commissioner on his juvenile justice commission when he first came into office. In fact, he came into office with a plan to really address the conditions of our correctional system. And he also appointed forward thinking staff members in the form of his Department of Corrections secretary, right? He appointed a forward-thinking parole chair who released more individuals than several of his previous predecessors. The secretary of the Department of Corrections changed the language within that environment and stop referring to individuals as offenders, right? And so DOC staff has to refer to incarcerated individuals as persons in our care. And so the fact that the governor installed forward thinking individuals within the correctional system to begin to chip away at the issues in Wisconsin was a clear indication that he was committed to carry out some of the things that he stated on the campaign trail, right?
However, we live in a purple state. We live in a state that has a Republican control legislature that is tough phone crime leaning. And any republican who steps outside of that tough on crime narrative, they can fall into the crosshairs of radio personalities that falls them out and can potentially affect them being reelected. So I definitely think that the governor is sincere in this plan. He has been committed over the last eight years of his administration and he has consistently introduced measures that will move Wisconsin forward as it pertains to criminal justice reform. However, he has been met with a gridlock within the state legislature. And so I think as long as the voices of stakeholders remain amplified, I believe that we can continue to move Wisconsin forward. If funding stays intact and construction moves fast, I believe that Green Bay correctional closes, transforms into a rehabilitation center.
We see fewer people locked up. We see more people trained for real jobs and staff can finally work in humane conditions in this version, in that version, Wisconsin can potentially become a national model, which would be proof that we can invest mass, invest our way out of mass incarceration instead of into it. I ran the campaign a few years ago that whose slogan was people not prison. And what we were saying was, we need to invest in people and not invest in prisons, right? Because the more we invest in harm, the more harm we’re going to perpetuate. And so I think that if Wisconsin follows through, I think that we can potentially become a national model where we are moving away from mass incarceration in opposed to being a national model where we are investing significantly in incarceration, as you mentioned at the top of the show, that we have racial disparities that are outlier in this region and outlier nationally. In fact, Wisconsin incarcerates more black men than any other state in the union. And so we have a problem and I think that this plan that the governor has introduced is a step forward in the right

Mansa Musa:
Direction. Lemme ask you this here as we close out. So how are y’all going to go about one measuring it because it’s progression, I’m talking about it, I’m implementing, and this is the process. How y’all going to go about your organization or the grassroots organizations that you’re involved with? How y’all going to go about measuring the progress on it and how y’all going to go about enforcing the legislation that came out to ensure what you just outlined, that this could become a model for the nation? What are your group or the grassroots organizations in Wisconsin and Milwaukee? What are y’all going to be doing if an event, it doesn’t go according to script y’all, it’s a good idea how y’all get them to stay focused on the good idea.

Sean Wilson:
Yeah. I think the only way to measure success is at the conclusion is at the finish line. I think that the more collective power that we build, the number of people who joins the coalition, the number of legislators who comes to the middle and agrees that this is what needs to get done. I think that if the next governor comes into office aligned with the current governor and the plan as outlined, I think that can be attributed to the success of on the ground organizing. I think that the plan success shouldn’t necessarily be measured in construction milestones, meaning what is done from a construction standpoint, but it should be measured in human outcomes. How many people have been returned home to their communities? How many people are reintegrating with employment that pays the livable wage? How many victims are restored? How are we reducing the deaths and the assault?
Right? Are there fewer incidents inside facilities, right? Are the working conditions improved? Are there staff retention and is the morale improving? I think that when we look at the conditions, are the conditions improved, air quality, sanitation, access to care? Are we finally meeting basic standards? I think that we have to ensure that this plan actually reduces the number of people who are incarcerated statewide. I think that we have to ensure that more people are getting into education and job training and reentry prep before they are released. And then we have to make sure that make fewer people are cycling in because they had real support leaving. Those are some of the main things from an organizing standpoint that we have to factor in and what we can use to measure success.

Mansa Musa:
Well, Sean, you know what I want to say? This is I like your optimism. I like your perspective in terms of how you outlined it and how it looks and how it should look. And that’s the reality in Maryland. We measured the success of our advocacy and the change in the prison industrial complex. We measured it by how many people was getting out. We measured it by what resources existed when they got out, what we could do to ensure that those resources was available for people getting out. And more importantly, we inserted ourselves to be the go between that system and society because we serve time. So we wanted to be in that space and say, give ’em us. We will deal with ’em. Or we position ourselves to create programs for ’em to do that. But as we close, tell our audience how they can stay focused, stay in touch with you, or how they can stay on top of what’s going on in Wisconsin and if they want to become involved, how they can become involved.

Sean Wilson:
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for that, man. If folks want to stay involved with me, folks can email me at seanWilson@dream.org, Sean, SEANwilson@dream.org. Folks can follow us on social media, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter @DreamCorps, folks can text empathy to 9 7 4 8 3. Again, empathy to 9 7 4 8 3. And what that does, it invites them to join our Empathy Network, which is a national network of system impacted individuals, families, and allies. And that way they’ll be able to be informed of all of the initiatives and programs that we have available. And just real quickly, a soft plug, I know I didn’t get a chance to talk about it, but we run a national leadership and advocacy training program called Dream Justice Cohort. This is a program for directly impacted individuals, individuals who have lived through the justice system and are now leading change in their communities, right? So over three months, participants learn how to organize run campaigns and use their stories to influence policy at every level of government. This is a movement that we’re building and for the last four and a half years, our alumni have been able to pass seven pieces of legislation all across this country. They’ve been able to lead national coalitions and train other leaders in this work. This program is all about centering their voices and ensuring that they have the tools and the resources that they need to be successful at the local, state and national level.

Mansa Musa:
And you know what, Sean? I’m going to tag this particular episode to be continued. And the reason why I’m saying to be continue, because if this become the reality and we use the word you use it several times, if, and I’m using that, if this become a reality, then this will be the model that we can look at throughout this nation on how to take and have sensible legislation that has real impact on people’s lives as opposed to, I was given lip service to the problem, only just throw the rock and hide the hand. So I’m going to say just is be continued. But I’m going to say this in closing though. You rattled the bars today, Sean, we hear you. We hear you loud and clear. We hope you much success as you go forward because your success at dismantling this system can serve as the Japanese parable of moving the mountain can serve as the shovel and taking one shovel at a time out the mountain before this whole system crumbles and fall. We ask that you continue to support the Real News and continue to support Rattling the Bars because guess what? We really are the real news.