Israel’s almost year-long genocide of Palestinians in Gaza has brought many long-simmering questions of politics and identity within the international Jewish community to the fore. What does it mean to be Jewish? Is ‘never again’ a statement primarily based in nationalism or in an ethic of universal justice? Speaking from his experience organizing Canada’s Jewish community against Israel’s genocide, Corey Balsam of Independent Jewish Voices of Canada joins The Marc Steiner Show for an extensive discussion on what it means to be an anti-Zionist Jew today.

Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich

---

Transcript

Marc Steiner:  Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. It’s great to have you all with us.

Today, there’s massive demonstrations going on in Israel against the war in Gaza to bring the hostages home, as well as ending the slaughter in Gaza. But the worldwide tide is turning against Israel. This Israeli illegal murderous occupation of the West Bank and the slaughter and devastation taking place in Gaza allows the rise of antisemitism in the world, antisemitism, which always lurks just below the surface. It’s always here. Neo-fascism is on the rise in the world and is in control of the government of Israel, and we face a very dangerous, complex, uncertain future.

My guest today is Corey Balsam. He’s coordinator of the Independent Jewish Voices of Canada, to bring his experienced analysis about this war in Gaza and the growing movement against it in Canada, in the world, and Jewish community. And he’s worked for Oxfam. He lived in Palestine for three-and-a-half years, and we really do welcome him to the show.

Good to have you here, Corey.

Corey Balsam:  Pleasure to be with you.

Marc Steiner:  There’s so many places to start this, but in all my experience in years of working around this issue, being part of the anti-occupation movement since the late ’60s, there’s something about this particular moment that is really treacherous and dangerous, that we’re on some kind of precipice. This is a bit different with this far-right government in Israel and the slaughter taking place in Gaza. I’d like to hear your analysis of where we are and why you think we’re at this place, and where you think this takes us?

Corey Balsam:  Yeah, really good question. I completely agree with you that we’ve never seen anything like this. I’ve been involved for quite a long time. I never imagined it would get this bad. It’s a genocide, what’s happening in Gaza.

And I think with the fog of “war”, we’re seeing the Israeli government move on a lot of their objectives with respect to the West Bank as well. So we’re really at… Yeah, a precipice is a good way to put it.

We’ve also never seen such a movement in response. I think, in terms of anti-war movements, this is definitely a historic one where, obviously, the campus protests and the weekly demonstrations with tens, hundreds of thousands of people around the world protesting, and we’re seeing some movement there. And I think in Canada, I can talk about some of the developments here.

But I think Israel has been so emboldened over the years. They know that they have the US veto. They’ve tested the waters for quite a long time and have seen that there’s really been no response or very little response, mostly just words. So they’re just continuing.

I think those who were in the leadership there, unfortunately, are quite frankly genocidal. We’ve known about them for a long time, and I lived in the West Bank for quite a while, and I saw the settlers, and I saw the stars of David on Palestinian homes and things like that, which really was something that shocked me in those days. And now we’re just seeing them able to enact what it is that, at one point, radical fringe in Israeli society has wanted to do.

Marc Steiner:  Right.

Corey Balsam:  And what scares me, really, I don’t know if some of your readers or you, Marc, saw, there was a podcast in Israel, an English language podcast called Two Nice Jewish Boys.

Marc Steiner:  Oh, yeah.

Corey Balsam:  And there’s clips of that podcast that have gone viral where they say, basically, we talk to everyday Israelis. Basically, the street is saying, if you gave us a red button to wipe out all the Palestinians, we would do it in an instant without thinking.

So what’s really scaring me is the mainstreaming of the genocidal thinking, and, to some extent, connections with that in the Jewish community here and elsewhere, not just the Jewish community. I think broader Zionist audiences are latching onto that. I’m not saying that’s everyone or even represents the majority, but I am quite concerned about the level of complacency and support despite, of course, the mass movements, which, again, we can talk about.

And so yeah, it paints a pretty dark picture for the future. I am inspired by the movements. I don’t think this can go on forever. I don’t think the occupation, the apartheid, all of that can go on forever. Like they say, it usually gets worse before it gets better. So hopefully soon we’ll be on the track for it getting better.

Marc Steiner:  So I’m really curious, two things, semi-connected here, is your own sojourn as a Jewish man into opposing the occupation and opposing what’s happening in Israel, and where that came from for you? Let’s just start there and stop, and I’ll do the second part after that.

Corey Balsam:  It’s a big question, Marc. I’ve been asked this a number of times.

Marc Steiner:  I’m sure you have. I have too. I understand completely.

Corey Balsam:  Yeah. Where did it start? I went to a very multicultural, multi-ethnic school. I had a Palestinian friend from the age of… What was it? Maybe seven or something like that. So that helped. The politics weren’t there to help break down some possible ideas that I might have about Palestinians wanting to kill Jews, me in particular.

I later got in, in part because I… Actually, so I was telling Marc before the show that I practice Capoeira, an Afro-Brazilian art form, which is very much rooted in resistance and struggle against racism and slavery and things like that. And through starting that, I connected with a lot of people that were very open to the world and had, I think, some quite progressive politics. So that, I think, helped me think about things in a different way.

And eventually, again, it’s a long story, there’s a lot that went into it, but I ended up taking a position to come out and say, as a Jewish person, I’m going to use what I know. I’m going to use the platform that’s given to me to speak out and to try to push the power that has the ability to make the change, the Israeli government, and by extension, Jewish communities around the world to take action.

Marc Steiner:  As I was thinking about the work that you all do in Canada and reading about it, and also the struggle going on across the planet and what’s happening in Israel-Palestine right now. As I said at the beginning of the program, antsemitism is always lurking below the surface. It runs deep in human society. People love to hate Jews. That’s a reality.

And what I often say sometimes, people in conversations, I speak, is that, but for the first time in our history as Jews, we’re the ones unleashing it, hard as that is to say, because of what’s happening in Israel and Palestine.

And I find that sometimes it’s something you really have to wrestle with, with family, with friends, with people you know. Why are you taking this position? How could you be against Israel” Right? I’m sure you experienced that.

So I’m curious, for you, how those two things interact, opposing this occupation and this slaughtering in Gaza, and also realizing that antisemitism runs deep and how we wind ourselves through that murky water?

Corey Balsam:  So a big part of what we do with Independent Jewish Voices is make the case that you can stand up for Palestinian liberation and you can also be staunchly against and actively oppose antisemitism. So we lead workshops with a lot of movement allies and unions and other groups to really help people understand the history of antisemitism, what it looks like, what it looked like in the past, what it looks like today, and also what is not antisemitism.

Because so much of what the movement faces and those who speak out for Palestinian human rights or liberation are accusations of antisemitism to shut them down.

We’ve, in many ways, taken a leadership role globally in the fight against the IHRA definition, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition, which has been a core part of the global strategy with involving the Israeli government and pro-Israel lobby groups to shut down and silence the criticism of Israel and movements in support of Palestine. So I think it’s really important to understand those distinctions.

And yeah, a lot of people will say, oh, we’re Validating the antisemites or that sort of thing. I think we’re doing actually so much just being at the protest and having a Jewish voice that’s like, we’re Jews, we’re proud Jews, and we’re standing up for Palestine. I think that does so much to oppose antisemitism and to allow people to go in that direction.

Because antisemitism is about conspiracy theories for the most part, right? Jews controlling the world and controlling our politicians and this and that. And I think what we need to continue to explain to people and to show is that Israel is not Jews. Zionism is not Jews. These things are distinct.

Obviously, many Jews are Zionists, unfortunately, today, and hopefully less and less as they see what’s unfolding as a result in Palestine. But these things are different and it’s not, again, because of Jews. So yeah, that’s, I think, what we need to continue saying.

And these things really undermine movements. I’m reading a book now called Safety Through Solidarity: A Radical Guide to Fighting Antisemitism.

Marc Steiner:  Shane Burley’s book?

Corey Balsam:

Yeah, Shane Burley.

Marc Steiner:  We’ll be interviewing him with that book in about a week. Yeah.

Corey Balsam:  Oh, amazing. Yeah, I know. It’s great. Great. It’s a really important [inaudible]. Also to think about how to oppose antisemitism in a time of Israeli genocide.

Marc Steiner:  Right.

Corey Balsam:  What does that mean? How to negotiate those conversations. Obviously we should be prioritizing, in my view, the genocide. That is the big issue right now. Are some Jews facing antisemitism? For sure. Is it, in many cases, like on campus, for instance, are those accusations weaponized to shut down protesters? Yes. So it takes a lot of nuance to be able to navigate this terrain. That’s something that we’re forced to reckon with and to deal with. And it does take up a lot of our time, but I think it’s important work.

Marc Steiner:  It is important. I also wrestle with how we as Jews, how the oppressed can so easily become the oppressor.

Corey Balsam:  I think our most famous member, probably, is Gabor Maté.

Marc Steiner:  Oh, yeah, sure.

Corey Balsam:  He speaks a lot about these types of things. And for me, when I see what’s happening, in no way do I want to absolve the Israeli government, Israelis participating in this, of responsibility, but I think, how did we get to this? Where did this mentality come from? It came from the Holocaust and from years of Jews being oppressed, that whole idea of cycle of violence.

Gabor says when people ask, Jews, of all people, how could they do this? How could they be doing this to the Palestinian people? And his response is like, how could they not, given the history, in many ways? It’s very explainable, I think, from a psychological perspective.

And so our job also as Jews engaged in this is to really try to undo some of that. One thing that I really resented growing up and learning about the Holocaust and antisemitism was that the way it’s so often taught is not to heal, not to heal and move on and focus on never again for anyone.

In most institutions, at least from my experience, it’s mostly about never again for us, and another Holocaust could be around the corner at any moment, be on guard, be afraid, be afraid. Rather than, again, about healing and trying to think about tikkun olam and how to make sure these things don’t happen again to anyone.

And we’re seeing that play out today. In Toronto, we’re now seeing these armed or security groups that are popping up, and even the Jewish Federation is announcing all these measures for security. And it really just, I think, keeps people in the state of perpetual fear. And when you’re in that state of perpetual fear, all alleys lead to Zionism and supporting Israel as our savior.

When in fact, and I agree with you, that’s what’s contributing to the anger, obviously. I don’t think, for the most part, it’s anger against Jews. I think it’s anger against Israel. There are people that do not make that distinction, unfortunately.

Marc Steiner:  Unfortunately. There are many of them, as well. So what do you think, in terms of being an organizer in the Jewish world and large world around Israel-Palestine, and we’re watching what’s taking place now, where do you politically see the path forward? And your role as well, and the role of Jews to help stop the slaughter?

Corey Balsam:  Yeah, I wish I had the answer for you, Marc, in terms of —

Marc Steiner:  You don’t have an answer? No, I’m just kidding [both laugh].

Corey Balsam:  The political path forward. We said immediately after Oct. 7, there’s no way of resolving this militarily. Oct. 7 came out of a context in which Palestinians were pushed to desperation, they, especially in Gaza, were kept in an open air prison, denied access to the world and basics. So it’s no surprise that there would’ve been an explosion like that.

So what is the response? One thing not to do, like the Canadian government, is tell Israel, well, they have the right to defend themselves. That’s basically giving them carte blanche to do what they did, and now we’re almost a year later.

The way forward is actually having the world say, you know what? We need to actually address the core issues here that led to Oct. 7 and have led to all this anger, and pursue justice. Justice, justice, we shall pursue. I think that’s really the only path.

And I don’t have a particular agenda as to one state, two state, red state, blue state [Steiner laughs]. I think any system, any state needs to be one that is, or any system of states, where there’s no group that’s oppressed, there’s no group that’s dominating, or a state is not geared around dominating the other group, which is the case right now.

So I think that’s really the only way, and there has to be pressure. Obviously, we’ve now seen international court decisions. We’ve seen movement in the General Assembly, but nothing really binding and nothing really threatening the Israeli government. So they know that. They know that they can get out of it.

And in terms of reputation, I think they’ve sacrificed that. For a long time, I think Israel was much more worried about their reputation. At this point, I think they’ve sacrificed their reputation, in many ways, because they know that there won’t be consequences anyway.

So there needs to be consequence. There needs to be sanctions, and we need to push towards some sort of resolution, or else this is just going to continue.

Marc Steiner:  As one of the leaders and founders of the Independent Jewish Voices in Canada, how do you see that movement growing, and do you see it growing?

Corey Balsam:  Oh, yeah. So before Oct. 7, IJV was, arguably, the biggest grassroots Palestine solidarity organization in the country. Now, I think it’s still probably the case as a national organization, but the level of mobilization at the local level across the country, it’s totally unprecedented. We’re seeing this all around the world. So many different organizations, so many different people that are engaging.

Just on the Jewish side, we’ve almost doubled in numbers. We had 13 local chapters active on Oct. 6. I think we have 23 or 24 now.

Marc Steiner:  Really?

Corey Balsam:  We have a chapter on Cape Breton Island.

Marc Steiner:  Really?

Corey Balsam:  With a rabbi.

Marc Steiner:  With a rabbi [laughs].

Corey Balsam:  I didn’t even know there were Jews there [Steiner laughs]. So really, it’s incredible to see. And obviously the pros or lobby groups are trying to downplay our numbers and our role, but I think it is just growing. We’re hiring right now. We have a few staff. Our organization is mostly volunteers. We hired for this job last year in September, I think we got six applicants. This year, we got 36 applicants.

Marc Steiner:  Wow.

Corey Balsam:  Extremely strong candidates. So I think there’s a lot of interest. There’s a lot of engagement, especially amongst the younger generations, university students. So that bodes well for the future, to some extent. That’s one thing that we can be optimistic about in this very dismal reality that we’re living.

Marc Steiner:  And it is. I don’t know how this ends either in Israel-Palestine, this moment without a US government or other entities, Canadian government stepping in saying, no, no more guns, no more arms, bringing you to the table. Come to Camp David. We’re going to stop it. We have to figure out a future.

That is something I think, in some ways, for people like you and me, like us, to come up and say, this is what we have to do. This is what the next step has to be. Is it a bi-national state? Is it a Commonwealth? Is it one state? We have to have a solution. It has to end. We cannot become this murderous people slaughtering innocent Palestinians. We can’t be that.

Corey Balsam:  I don’t like to associate with that. People, obviously, there’s a big tradition of Jews [inaudible], but I agree with you that we need to push towards a resolution. It’s almost a year. We need to turn the tide on this and push towards justice.

In the US, there’s a very strong campaign to cut or to make weapons conditional. We have a campaign in Canada called Arms Embargo Now.

Marc Steiner:  Called What?

Corey Balsam:  Arms Embargo Now is our —

Marc Steiner:  Arms Embargo Now. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Corey Balsam:  Yeah. It’s a Canadian coalition that’s pushing similar demands. Obviously, we don’t have anywhere near the same amount of backing, financial or military backing of Israel as the US does.

But we’ve actually seen some movement on that, and that’s really promising. Just yesterday actually, the Foreign Minister announced that they’ve suspended 30 existing arms permits to Israel and are opposing — We’ll see what actually happens with this — But they’re opposing a shipment of arms from a Quebec company through the US that’s destined for Israel. And that’s the result of the organizing that’s happening right now.

It’s also the result, I think, of, actually, in my riding or electoral district, there’s a by-election now, and the NDP, a center-left Party has a candidate who’s saying vote for him to stop the genocide in Gaza. And that’s actually something that’s quite in play politically. So I think they’re realizing that this is an election issue, that this is something that interests a lot of people, and they don’t want to be complicit.

There’s also a legal case against the Canadian government regarding their sale of weapons to Israel and then violating their own laws. So I think that’s a good avenue to take. I think there are various avenues to take.

Another thing that we’ve really been focusing on are the charities, and we actually just had maybe our biggest victory ever over the summer in the revocation of the charitable status of the Jewish National Fund of Canada. And the JNF is really, at the core, I’m sure, Marc, you’re familiar with the JNF.

Marc Steiner:  I was shocked when I read in preparing for our conversation today that that actually happened.

Corey Balsam:  It actually happened. Now they’re appealing it. They released about 360 pages of documents going back decades, actually, discussing possible revocation or issues with the JNF and the government.

And the final document doesn’t really get into some of the issues that we were raising around their support for the IDF and for the settlements and things like that, but that’s all in there. And I think it played a big role in getting to that place now.

So of course, we hope that sticks, but that’s a big blow to, I think, the Zionist movement globally. There are about 40-something fundraising branches of the JNF around the world.

And for those listeners who don’t know, maybe just to give you a sense of what that is, the JNF was established in the beginning of the 1900s to fundraise to colonize Palestine and establish Jewish settlements. They went on to become the caretakers of the forest where they actually covered up something like 90 Palestinian villages with forests so the villagers couldn’t return. And they’ve continued in that same vein in the West Bank, helping the settler movement and helping the IDF and things like that.

So it goes back quite a long way, and it’s really a core organization to the whole Zionist idea and the idea of a Jewish-dominant apartheid state, essentially.

So we’re quite happy with that. And we’re pushing on other charities now too, that are funding extreme right organizations in Israel that are supporting settlements and the IDF. Obviously, in the US, you have a lot of that as well. Getting all sorts of calls from organizations and activists in the US and around the world saying, how did you do it with the JNF [Steiner laughs]? We want to do it here too. So I think that’s an angle, as well, that’s really important to be pushing on.

Marc Steiner:  That was a huge victory. And I’m glad we have this connection. And I’m also looking forward to many more conversations and getting you together with other activists around the country, this country, your country, the world, to continue this conversation, and in Palestine-Israel as well. Because it’s critical to the future of the world, I think, the danger of conflagration emanating from that, that could affect the entire planet. It’s huge and really important.

And so I appreciate you and the courage you have for standing up in the face of serious opposition for members of our community. And so Corey Balsam, thanks for joining us, and thank you so much for the work that you do.

Corey Balsam:  My pleasure, Marc.

Marc Steiner:  Oh, before we let you go, let folks know how to get in touch with you and how to get in touch with your organization in Canada?

Corey Balsam:  Sure. So it’s Independent Jewish Voices Canada. You can find us on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. Our website is ijvcanada.org. So yeah, feel free to reach out. And of course, if you’re here and you want to get involved or join, you’ll find all that information on the website.

Marc Steiner:  And I would just say as we go, we’re actually taping this on the 11th of September, which is a significant date in its own right. And so thank you so much, Corey, for the work you do and for joining us here today.

Corey Balsam:  My pleasure. Thanks, Marc.

Marc Steiner:  Once again, let me thank Corey Balsam for joining us today. His perspectives are always enlightening, and it’s critically important to hear the voices of Jewish resistance to the occupation of the West Bank and the strangulation and slaughter now taking place in Gaza.

And here in the studio, let me thank Cameron Granadino for running the program, audio editor, Alina Nehlich, Rosette Sewali for producing The Marc Steiner Show, and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes, and everyone here at The Real News for making the show possible.

Please let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therrealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you.

Once again, thank you to Corey Balsam for joining us today and all the work that he does. And please keep listening to all the reporting and stories we’re producing here at The Real News about the struggle in the Holy Land. So from the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.

This post was originally published on The Real News Network.