{"id":538948,"date":"2022-03-03T20:13:55","date_gmt":"2022-03-03T20:13:55","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/radiofree.asia\/?guid=f756eb7c704e26ea06fa09352c3758c8"},"modified":"2022-03-03T20:13:55","modified_gmt":"2022-03-03T20:13:55","slug":"us-must-not-use-ukrainians-as-a-foreign-policy-tool-sanders-adviser-says","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/2022\/03\/03\/us-must-not-use-ukrainians-as-a-foreign-policy-tool-sanders-adviser-says\/","title":{"rendered":"US Must Not Use Ukrainians as a Foreign Policy \u201cTool,\u201d Sanders Adviser Says"},"content":{"rendered":"\"\"<\/a>

While President Biden has ruled out sending troops into Ukraine, the U.S. is directly aiding Ukraine militarily and has imposed unprecedented sanctions on Russia amounting to what some have called \u201ceconomic warfare.\u201d We look at Biden\u2019s response with Senator Bernie Sanders\u2019s foreign policy adviser Matt Duss, who is also Ukrainian American. He says the U.S. should continue to exhaust all diplomatic avenues in order to stop violence in Ukraine. Duss also details the U.S. role in setting the stage for Putin\u2019s oligarchical government and says the U.S. must not use \u201cUkrainians as a tool for our foreign policy and our conflict with Russia.\u201d<\/p>\n

TRANSCRIPT<\/h2>\n

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.<\/em><\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> This is Democracy Now!<\/em>, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report<\/em>. I\u2019m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.<\/p>\n

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As the Russian invasion of Ukraine enters its second week, we turn now to look at how the Biden administration is responding to the crisis. Biden has repeatedly condemned Russia\u2019s invasion and opposed unprecedented sanctions on Russia in what some have described as a form of \u201ceconomic warfare.\u201d While President Biden has ruled out sending troops into Ukraine, the U.S. is directly aiding Ukraine militarily. CNN<\/span> is reporting the U.S. has recently delivered hundreds of Stinger anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine for the first time. President Biden took questions outside the White House Wednesday.<\/p>\n

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REPORTER<\/span> 1:<\/strong> Do you support permanent U.S. military presence in Poland and other Eastern European countries now, after what\u2019s happening in Ukraine?<\/p>\n

PRESIDENT<\/span> JOE<\/span> BIDEN<\/span>:<\/strong> We\u2019ve always been there. We\u2019ve always been in all the NATO<\/span> countries.<\/p>\n

REPORTER<\/span> 1:<\/strong> I\u2019m talking about permanent bases.<\/p>\n

PRESIDENT<\/span> JOE<\/span> BIDEN<\/span>:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s a decision for NATO<\/span> to make.<\/p>\n

REPORTER<\/span> 2:<\/strong> Do you think that \u2014<\/p>\n

REPORTER<\/span> 3:<\/strong> Mr. President, what did you mean when you said \u2014<\/p>\n

REPORTER<\/span> 4:<\/strong> Will you consider getting rid of vaccine mandates?<\/p>\n

PRESIDENT<\/span> JOE<\/span> BIDEN<\/span>:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n

REPORTER<\/span> 5:<\/strong> Mr. President, are you considering banning Russian oil imports?<\/p>\n

PRESIDENT<\/span> JOE<\/span> BIDEN<\/span>:<\/strong> Nothing is off the table.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> We\u2019re joined now by Matt Duss, foreign policy adviser for Senator Bernie Sanders. He\u2019s also a Ukrainian American. His father was born in Germany in a displaced persons camp after World War II after his family fled Ukraine.<\/p>\n

Matt Duss, welcome to Democracy Now!<\/em> Can respond, first of all, just to the overall situation, then particularly to the U.S. response and what needs to be done?<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Well, I mean, I think your previous guests described the horrifying situation in Ukraine right now, which is just \u2014 we\u2019ve just passed over a week of this Russian invasion. We\u2019re seeing more shelling of Ukrainian cities. And this is from \u2014 you know, Putin justified this invasion claiming that he was there to liberate Russians and Ukrainians from a fascist government. We don\u2019t need to tick through all the various justifications he has given, but I think Ukrainians, obviously, knew that was false, but I think Russian soldiers themselves now should be questioning whether that\u2019s false.<\/p>\n

As for the U.S. response, I think we\u2019ve seen, you know, even in the months and certainly the weeks leading up to the invasion, a very energetic diplomatic response from the United States to work with allies in Europe, NATO<\/span> allies, but not only NATO<\/span> allies, with allies in Asia, to prepare a sanctions response. I think that sanctions response has been extremely aggressive. It\u2019s become not just sanctions on Putin and his government and oligarchs around Putin, but over the week we saw serious sanctions cutting off a number of banks from the SWIFT<\/span> system, as your previous guest mentioned, but also effectively blocking sanctions on the central bank of Russia. So, these are very, very serious measures, and I think we\u2019ll have to watch now how Putin decides to respond.<\/p>\n

NERMEEN<\/span> SHAIKH<\/span>:<\/strong> Well, Matt, as you know, many have called for more \u2014 many in Ukraine have called for, minimally, more punitive sanctions, including an embargo on oil and gas exports. Europe is, of course, dependent for most of its gas and oil \u2014 40 and 30%, respectively \u2014 from Russia. And Russia\u2019s revenues, of course, also come from the sale of these oil and gas reserves. Could you talk about whether you think that\u2019s likely, and, even if these sanctions are imposed, whether that is likely to deter Russia?<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Right. No, I think there are two things here. One, that is it likely? And I want to say it\u2019s very possible, although that is something that is going to hit European countries much, much harder, and, frankly, it\u2019s going to hit the United States much harder. And, you know, it\u2019s going to raise the price of gas. It\u2019s going to raise the price of goods. That\u2019s certainly not an argument against it. I mean, I think if we are serious about imposing costs on the Russian government and on Vladimir Putin, that is, as President Biden said in the press remarks that you just played, everything is on the table. I think it also gets at the importance, ultimately \u2014 and this is something my boss, Senator Sanders, has talked about \u2014 to use this moment to shift more aggressively to green energy and deny these authoritarian regimes, not just Putin but a broader set of petrostates, the revenues they require to rule.<\/p>\n

But getting to the second point: How does this impact Putin\u2019s calculation, the Russian government\u2019s calculation? That is a real \u2014 you know, that\u2019s a question I have, as well. I think Putin has, unfortunately, laid out a number of very, very expansive goals and has not really left himself \u2014 I mean, it\u2019s hard to see how he would climb down from the very expansive agenda he\u2019s laid out. Many of your listeners are probably aware of the speech that he gave last week on the eve of the invasion, where he kind of laid out his theory that Ukraine is not a real country and this is part of the kind of Russian imperium, as he defines it. You know, and he would not be the first leader to walk back from some very wild \u2014 you know, this kind of wild agenda. But as of right now, it\u2019s unclear to me how he might do that.<\/p>\n

And we should also be very mindful of the impact that these sanctions are going to make, not just on the regime but on Russian working people themselves. This is, I think, a broader concern that progressives have about these kinds of sanctions tools, because if the theory of the case is that you will put pressure on the people who will, in turn, put pressure on their rulers, it\u2019s not quite clear how exactly that works when you\u2019re dealing with governments that are simply not responsive to the will of their people, as is the case in Russia.<\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> Matt, I wanted to ask you about former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton\u2019s comments on MSNBC<\/span> Monday, talking about Russia\u2019s invasion of Ukraine.<\/p>\n

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HILLARY<\/span> CLINTON<\/span>:<\/strong> Remember, the Russians invaded Afghanistan back in 1980. And although no country went in, they certainly had a lot of countries supplying arms and advice and even some advisers to those who were recruited to fight Russia. It didn\u2019t end well for the Russians. There were other unintended consequences, as we know. But the fact is that a very motivated and then funded and armed insurgency basically drove the Russians out of Afghanistan. \u2026 I think that is the model that people are now looking toward.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> \u201cUnintended consequences,\u201d Matt Duss?<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> Again, that\u2019s the former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Yeah, I would just respond to that by saying it didn\u2019t end well for the Russians; it really didn\u2019t end well for anyone, least of all the people of Afghanistan themselves. So, I certainly understand this may \u2014 you know, this invasion may backfire, ultimately, on Putin and on the Russian government, but I think we should not see this in terms simply of using the Ukrainians as a tool of our foreign policy and our conflict with Russia. I think the goal needs to be to end this fighting as quickly as we possibly can, to use every diplomatic lever we can to end this fighting. I think that should be our focus.<\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> I wanted to quickly ask you about oligarchs. You referred to the Russian oligarchs. But you talk about the oligarchs on both sides.<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Mm-hmm, yeah, that\u2019s right. I mean, what is an oligarch? It\u2019s a very wealthy and politically influential person, just in its broadest definition. Certainly, there is a set of oligarchs that have a lot of influence in Russia. And let\u2019s understand, one of the reasons why these oligarchs do have such power and wealth and influence is in large part because of the kind of neoliberal shock therapy that was applied to Russia in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, backed often by U.S. economists, who effectively auctioned off \u2014 who urged Russia to auction off the people\u2019s property, and it was gathered up by these oligarchs for their own wealth. And Putin \u2014 you know, this led to such an economic collapse and economic hardship that this, in turn, enabled the rise of a strongman like Putin, who gathered the oligarchs under his own control.<\/p>\n

And this is certainly not the first time the United States has run this scam. Let\u2019s understand, this kind of shock therapy has been applied in a number of countries around the world and has produced similar authoritarian outcomes. Now, having said that, I think we also have \u2014 you know, in our political system, while it is certainly not the same as Russia\u2019s, to say the least, we have a problem here of large concentrations of wealth and the political influence that that can buy in our system.<\/p>\n

NERMEEN<\/span> SHAIKH<\/span>:<\/strong> Matt, I\u2019d like to conclude by asking you about what you imagine the trajectory of this conflict might be. I mean, what Hillary Clinton said about unintended consequences and, of course, also about the defeat of the Russians in Afghanistan by \u2014 the Soviets at the time in Afghanistan is wrong. There are people who are expecting that this may turn out the same way, because even though the Americans and the Europeans have ruled out a no-fly zone, they are flooding Ukraine with weapons. And Russia, Putin doesn\u2019t show any indication of backing down, because, as you pointed out, it\u2019s not clear how he would save face or, indeed, how at this point the Russians can extract themselves. What do you think a resolution would look like? And do you think it\u2019s likely?<\/p>\n

MATT<\/span> DUSS<\/span>:<\/strong> Yeah, well, hopefully \u2014 I mean, the goal here, whether one agrees with it or not, I would say that the Biden administration\u2019s approach here has been fairly consistent for some time, which is to make clear to Putin that this invasion will be much more costly than he might have imagined. And I certainly think that Putin is seeing that right now, both in terms of the strength and the breadth of the sanctions that have been applied on Russia, with the U.S. working with its allies around the world, but also in terms of the Ukrainian resistance. I think some of the casualties that you read out earlier, these are pretty remarkable. I think there are some estimates that put the number of Russian troops killed at around 7,000. We should be cautious about those numbers right now. But let\u2019s just understand, 7,000 would be as many troops as the U.S. lost in Afghanistan and Iraq, almost combined, in nearly 20 years.<\/p>\n

So, in terms \u2014 so, the logic here is, you know, understanding that the Ukrainians themselves are resisting the Russian invasion. I think they have a right to do so, certainly. I think the goal should continue to be, or our focus should continue to be: What are the steps that end this fighting quickest, that continue to support diplomacy? Yes, the Ukrainians are agreeing to meet once again with the Russians, as you noted, on the Belarus border to find some diplomatic resolution here that ends the fighting. But, to be very honest, as I said earlier, given the aims that Putin has laid out, it\u2019s unclear to me if he is ready to take that offramp. So, for the time being, unfortunately \u2014 and it\u2019s enormously painful to say this \u2014 but it\u2019s hard for me to see how this stops anytime soon.<\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> Matt Duss, we want to thank you so much for being with us, foreign policy adviser to Senator Bernie Sanders. Matt Duss is a Ukrainian American.<\/p>\n

Coming up, could Russia\u2019s war in Ukraine spark a nuclear catastrophe? Russia\u2019s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has warned if a Third World War is to take place, it\u2019ll be nuclear. Stay with us.<\/p>\n

[break]<\/p>\n

AMY<\/span> GOODMAN<\/span>:<\/strong> \u201cGonna Be an Engineer\u201d by Peggy Seeger. It is Women\u2019s History Month.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Matt Duss blasts Hillary Clinton’s harmful analogy between the invasions of Afghanistan and Ukraine.<\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":1462,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[186,136,731,463,24,11883,30491,376,57],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/538948"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1462"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=538948"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/538948\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":538949,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/538948\/revisions\/538949"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=538948"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=538948"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/radiofree.asia\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=538948"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}

This post was originally published on Latest \u2013 Truthout<\/a>. <\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"