Chamique Holdsclaw’s legendary status was apparent from the moment she entered professional sports. After helping the US National Team win the Gold Medal in the 1998 Berlin Olympics, Holdsclaw was named Rookie of the Year in her first WNBA season. Her talent on the court and success in the WNBA projected an image of stability, but away from the cameras, Holdsclaw struggled with her mental health. On this episode of Edge of Sports, Holdsclaw speaks frankly about her struggles with depression, bipolar disorder, and fame. Elsewhere in the episode, Dave rails against the “anti-woke” Trumpist response to the US Women’s National Soccer Team’s loss at the FIFA World Cup, and Dr. Abdullah Al Arian joins “Ask a Sports Scholar” to talk about soccer in the Middle East.

Studio Production: David Hebden, Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Taylor Hebden
Audio Post-Production: David Hebden
Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino
Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen

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Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Dave Zirin:

Hoops legend, Chamique Holdsclaw, Abdullah Al-Arian, who wrote the book about soccer in the Middle East. I got things to say about the US women’s national team and their loss and why people on the right are celebrating it, but you got to stay tuned. Edge of Sports, it’s on now.

Speaker 2:

(singing)

Dave Zirin:

Welcome to Edge of Sports, the TV show only on The Real News Network. I’m Dave Zirin, and this week we’ve got another legend for you, one of the great hoopsters of all time. You may remember her from the NCAA Championships at the University of Tennessee and from racking up enough individual honors to fill a closet. You may remember her iconic cover on Slam Magazine in a Knicks uniform. You may remember her from the WNBA and you may know about her heroic mental health advocacy. I’m talking about the great Chamique Holdsclaw.

Also, I’ve got some choice words about the gleeful response by the so-called patriots on the political right to the defeat of the US Women’s National Soccer team. We’re calling it reactionary defeatism. And lastly, in our recurring segment, Ask a Sports Scholar, I’ve got the great professor, Abdullah Al-Arian, whose book Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game, is a must-read for all sports fans. But first, let’s talk to the one and only Chamique Holdsclaw. Chamique Holdsclaw, thanks so much for joining us.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Thanks for having me, Dave.

Dave Zirin:

This is just something I’ve always wanted to ask you. You’ve done so much on and off the court. What fills you with the most pride when you sit back and look back at your journey?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Wow, what fills me with the most pride? I would just say the fact that I’ve been able to overcome, find balance, find happiness, contribute to others’ happiness in a positive way, and bring people together.

Bring people together with love, with great energy, because I’ve really realized that there was a divide a lot of times because people don’t necessarily interact in other people’s neighborhoods or things they think is so different. Everybody’s so different. “Oh my god, New Yorkers are this way. Tennesseeans are this way.” But honestly, when you uncover it all, we’re all going through the same things. We’re all more connected than we would ever know. So, I’ve just enjoyed being able to bridge that gap in my own way.

Dave Zirin:

Wow. You came forward about mental health, mental health challenges when really no one in the sports world was taking that step. It was still seen as something that one just did not discuss. You wrote about it. You were the subject and creator of a superb documentary called Mind/Game: The Unquiet Journey of Chamique Holdsclaw. And I just had to ask you, was there a fear factor involved for you as a public figure in coming forward?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Was there a fear factor? Of course. Yes, being a public figure, but you got to think about it too, just culturally, I was always told things that happen in my household stays in my household. We’re of a people that overcome through our faith in the church. So, you put your head down and you push through it, but that pushing through really wasn’t helping me.

Then on the flip side, you have being a high-level athlete. Since I was younger it’s, “Surround yourself with the right people. Stay on course. Do the right thing.” And when that started to unravel a little bit, there was a fear, a fear of being judged, a fear of not being looked at as this strong woman who’s overcome from her life in New York to go to Tennessee to be a champion. To have to reveal there’s kinks in the armor, it’s very fearful.

Dave Zirin:

Yeah. But then subsequently after you came forward, there were players like Kevin Love and DeMar DeRozan, the great tennis star, Naomi Osaka. I mean, I could go on and on of top athletes who stepped forward to say, “This is not a weakness and we need to break the stigmas.” Was that gratifying for you or what was the emotional response for you when you were like, “Oh wow, I actually started something.”?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yes. Dave, I was like, “Finally. It’s amazing.” Because the thing about it, whether it’s high-level performing individuals, whether it’s business, sports, entertainment, you have to protect yourself and you have to learn the power of your voice and not be afraid because of corporations and business, to take care of you. So, from Osaka to Love to DeRozan, all the athletes are just so brave.

I was just really excited about the cultural shift because with social media, social media helps a lot because a lot of these young kids, they’ll know, they may not know anything about basketball, but they’ll know who a Selena Gomez is because I guess at one time she was the most followed person on Instagram. So, when you have eight year old kids or whatever, “Yes, Selena Gomez had to go get help because she was depressed because…” And I’m like, “Wow, times are changing.” And so, now people see other people speaking out, they can connect to those people or in some cases they relate to them and that empowers them to want to be better and to get the help that they need.

Dave Zirin:

You’re inspiring me to ask this question in this particular way. I had a rough morning between my ears. And I’m usually pretty steady. This morning, not the case for a host of reasons I won’t share with you. What’s your process when you feel challenged?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Oh my God. And again, a shout-out to all the parents out there because it’s not an easy job and until you’ve gone through it yourself, you realize that. So, for me, every morning when I wake up it’s like, how can I be the best for my wife and for my kids? Because I’m human. I have emotions like you said, or you may get some news and it knocks you off.

My process is I pray. I have to have quiet time. When something hits me, I’ll just tell my wife, “Hey, I’m going for a walk.” I like to listen to nature sounds. I’m big into the sound machine. And if it’s something that I really need to get off my chest … Because a part of me, I have this introverted side, and I know when I was really, really hammered down by my challenges, I wasn’t able to talk to my friends about it or my family. I just stuffed my feelings and emotions.

Over the years talking about this topic and educating my friends, they’re just a great support, my family and friends. So, sometimes I may walk and I need to call a friend and I need to decompress. And to know that I have that, I have somebody that’s going to listen to me and support me and not necessarily tell me what I should do. Just really listening, because at the end of the day, I think a lot of people know which direction they want to go, they just need to get stuff off their chest. And so, I’m grateful just to have different tools that have allowed me to be in a better place as far as my mental health.

Dave Zirin:

Wow. Thank you for that. I was talking with our mutual friend, Etan Thomas, I’ll never forget years ago, about you. And I remember saying, “Wow, Chamique Holdsclaw doing this as a top level pro athlete, coming forward. That takes courage.” And Etan looked at me for a long moment and he says, “It also takes courage to come at this from the Black community and speaking about mental health.” And I’m obviously in no place to ask this question, but through Etan I shall ask this question is, does that present a challenge that we collectively need to be aware of?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Oh, definitely. Especially where I’m from. I can only speak to my journey growing up, going to live with my grandmother at 11 and living in the housing projects here in Astoria. It’s like you don’t have those conversations. Like I said, you just got to put your head down and push through things. And you got some people living paycheck to paycheck, issues at their jobs. Just really trying to be better parents, trying to be better people. And they feel like society is coming at them from so many different angles and they don’t have time to breathe, to say, “Oh, I need to go to therapy.” Can they afford therapy? It’s so expensive. Right?

And so, you have a lot of just stuff, you just put your head and you deal with it or you go to church and you try to pray it away, pray it away. So many people told me that the stuff that I’ve encountered, in the church, people, “Oh, that’s that girl, that bipolar girl.” Yes, Dave, I’ve heard this about myself from someone in the church, because when I went through my second episode, I really felt like I had to work this process myself. I felt like I had friends in support of my corner, but I had to go through this healing and it was really my faith that helped me through.

A lot of people don’t know, and I probably haven’t shared this too much, I don’t think I probably even shared this, but I was in church, I would go to church on the weekends, but it was Saturday service. I was there Saturday, Sunday, and I was there for the service during the week, because I felt like that was the only way for me to get through. But it’s disheartening when you hear people in the church putting you down. This is a place for healing, right? And community.

So, without going too far off, we just have to have those spaces. It was always counseling and churches for finances, right? Marriage counseling. And so, now the last 15 years, most places of worship have a place where people can get counseling to be better, because a lot of people suffer from, you’ll say seasonal depression or something. I know on the West Coast, Portland and Seattle it’s a big thing. But I know it gets gray out, snowing. Everybody’s spirit gets a little down. It’s when that doesn’t go away, when that doesn’t go away and it’s affecting your work, it’s affecting your family life or whatever. You have to take that step to say, “Hey, I need help.”

But it’s just great to see for people of color that that place now is in a church. And not to get discouraged. Because I’ll never forget that day. I don’t want to say what church I was at, but I just felt like boom, and I ran away and I called my mother and I was like, “I’m never going there again. This lady said that.” And she’s like, “You know what? You can’t let other people affect your peace.” My mother said this and I was like, “What are you saying?” She goes, “No, you go back and you continue to stay steadfast and continue to encourage others because this is your God doing work in your life.” And she was right. And I went back and I shared this story and I’m like, “Listen, we got to come together in places where there’s a lot of us. Help people through their challenges and difficulties.”

One thing that I would say really opened my eyes was I met a man and good job, whatever, and it was a Black gentleman and he was just telling me about his challenges. He could identify with some things I was going through and he had been in the military and stuff. And he goes, “Man, I’m afraid. I’m afraid to ask for help.” He’s like, “My job offers therapy, but I’m afraid if they found out, my employer, that I’m using this services that they’ll just judge me.”

So, I’m looking at this guy and I’m like, “So, all of this stuff that you told me, the different trauma you’ve experienced. You’re afraid to be better because of what other people are going to say and do?” And I looked at him and I was like, “Man, you got to knock down that door. You got to take that step.” And he’s just like, “I got to provide for my daughter and stuff.” Man, I was like, “You got to forget that. You got to be the best you, because right now you’re not bringing that to your daughter, you’re not bringing that to your wife. The world is already a heavy place for a man of color anyway.” And fast-forward, this is probably, I think it’s 10 years ago, me and this gentleman had this conversation, and through social media and stuff we stayed in contact and the therapy has changed his life.

Dave Zirin:

Wow. That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Right now as we have this conversation, we’re dealing with what’s been described as a youth mental health crisis, particularly in the wake of the pandemic, although I think it precedes that.

When you were young, you’re a New York City high school, phenom, Christ the King, four straight New York State Championships.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Right.

Dave Zirin:

Amazing. Something we still talk about in NYC.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Right. Right.

Dave Zirin:

Had mental health challenges surfaced for you during that time of such glory? And what advice do you have for the youth dealing with this?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Wow. Yes. I started experiencing challenges when I was 11 or 12 years old and my grandmother did try to attempt to get me some help and understanding, but you hear those things, right? Like, “Oh, what happens in your house stays in your household.” Then you’re taking me to the community center where I’m met by a white gentleman who I feel like I’m looking around, there’s not many white people in this community and now they want me to open up and share and talk to him. And at a young age, I didn’t feel safe in that space.

Sports at that time was really becoming a big thing in my life. And so, I learned to just put my energy into that, to work hard because if you start to see all these amazing male players at the time in New York City, you see the Bobby Knights, you see Coach K’s coming to New York and you get to witness that. I’m like, “Oh my God, one day I want that to happen.” So, I felt like sports could change my life, as it did. But high school, I was going through a lot. My mom, she was in and out of rehab for drinking and showing up intoxicated at my games and I was really embarrassed, but it was traumatic for me emotionally.

All that time, no one ever asked me, “Hey, do you want to talk about this?” None of my coaches, because it was like I was a talent and it was like when I kicked the garbage can and I’m upset, it was just like everyone’s stroking the shoulder. I call it the coach mentality. Whenever you’re good at something and people see that, whether it’s music, art, whatever, they want to put you on this path and massage you. And that’s something that people, you got to get out of it.

So, I love now how, yes, New York is still in my opinion, the mecca of basketball, but all these summer activities and things these shoe companies are putting on here in New York it’s great that a lot of them are adding the wellness component. A lot of coaches now are doing mental health first aid. So they can understand how to address these young people. So, I love it and I love how things are just moving forward.

Dave Zirin:

Describing your high school years, it just is making me feel how heroic it was for you to say, “I’m going to Knoxville.” For all the culture shock issues that would inevitably come up going to small town Tennessee, but then freshman year you’re dominating. But also we can’t look at athletics as the indicator for how somebody’s doing either.

So, how difficult was the transition? And you’re being coached by one of the greatest ever in Pat Summitt, but who’s also of course, very demanding, very old school, very serious. How did that translate for you given what was going on internally?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

I felt like Coach Summitt, amazing coach, right? Amazing, successful, but an even better person and I was really thankful for the mentorship and the friendship. She was an extension of my grandmother, helped me navigate things when I came forward with her regarding my mental health. But again, you’re young, right? You’re young. None of my parents or whatever, they went to college, two year schools, they didn’t know what it was like … No one prepared me for going to a big university. Even though I went to Christ the King, so you had a lot of kids that went on to college or whatever. But I don’t know, I don’t think I really knew what I was getting into to go there.

And it was a culture shock. I was used to so much diversity. I had friends, all different religions, all different backgrounds and the train accessibility. And here it was like plop, you’re on this campus and you really are trying to navigate to find your tribe. And I’m like, “Oh man, these people talk too slow.” They’re telling me I talked too fast. But Coach Summitt understood, she’d been coaching at that time for 20-something years, she understood how to bring together sisterhood and community. And she just told me and my grandmother to be patient, because I wanted to transfer. You’re young, you’re like, “I’m out of here. This doesn’t feel comfortable.” Right?

And I’m glad that she taught me a good lesson, like, you got to work the process, don’t quit. Work the process. And I think a lot of how she dealt with me has really helped me in my life through challenges because, “Yes, life is hard, you’re going to sometimes be on uncommon ground, but you have different skillsets, Chamique.” She’s always like, “You’re great with people. People are going to love you. You’re great at bringing community together. And so, those are your strengths.” She wanted me to understand who I was, because I was shy, I was so shy. I was just like, head down, pressing along, but it was all these big feelings and emotions inside.

And when she allowed me to be me, she would ask me how I’m feeling, I can talk. I felt safe. It really started to change for me and understanding I was a leader. Understanding this is different, but I can talk about it. I can talk about the things that make me feel awkward here. I didn’t like country music. I said that one time. Now I’m older, right? I was 18 years old and they asked me, they were like, “Do you like country music?” On a station. And I was like, “No, I don’t like country music.” Do you know I was attacked? These people are writing in and saying, “How dare her say that?” But again, I was not exposed to that. Right?

Dave Zirin:

Sure.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Being able to just grow and find your place. And it was an education for me to understand a Southern way of things and for other people to understand how I grew up.

Dave Zirin:

Do you go back to Knoxville sometimes?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yes. I go back to-

Dave Zirin:

What’s that like for you?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Dave, it’s not just Knoxville, it’s Knox Vegas.

Dave Zirin:

Knox Vegas. Yes.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

It’s great just to see how much things have grown. And it’s about the young people. We have a program, right? And they know who the pioneers were. A lot of these young ladies, they don’t know who Pat Summitt is, right? Some of the younger kids. But it’s just great, the kids that come there doing their homework, just being respectful.

For me, it’s seeing how the facilities have grown. College, it was big business, we thought before. It is big business now. And so, just seeing the young ladies have that opportunity to compete as collegiate athletes, to be rewarded in a way they’d never been rewarded before with the NIL stuff. To go back and to see how my stadium, Thompson-Boling Arena is so amazing. I mean, they have sweets now. You get sweets. It’s amazing. But I have a lot of pride because those people, through challenges, through life, they’ve always had my back, just really awesome people. My college teammate, [inaudible 00:21:22], my point guard, is actually the head coach there now. So, that’s awesome. I would say Tennessee, we tend to keep it in the family. You know?

Dave Zirin:

Mm-hmm. Before you go, I got to ask you just a couple of hoops questions.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

All right, cool.

Dave Zirin:

Because women’s hoops is exploding like never before, particularly at the NCAA level.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yes.

Dave Zirin:

You laid the basis for everything we’re seeing in 2023. What player or team gets you hyped?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Oh my god. You want to start with collegiate first?

Dave Zirin:

Hey, wherever you want to start.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Man, okay. I just love the confidence of the young ladies from LSU. I love it because for so long … I don’t know if you notice, men after a game, a lot of times they’ll just peace and keep walking, but it was always an expectation for the women to shake hands and be the good girls and we can’t show our toughness or we’re acting like a boy or whatever. But to see these young ladies claim their space like, “Yes, I’m going to talk trash too.” Because I’m telling you growing up, man, I had to talk so much and then the camera’s on you and it’s like, handle yourself a certain way.

I love them being able to authentically express who they are, to share their journey. Like, Angel Reese said, “I’m from Baltimore.” And again she said it with the Baltimore accent, I’m not quite getting it, but saying we talk trash everywhere. Now, I’ve been to Baltimore, I’m sure you have too. And it’s just like, oh-

Dave Zirin:

Oh, we’re recording from Baltimore. That’s where the studio is.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Okay. Okay. Okay, awesome. So, I’m like, oh, I get it. I can identify with this young lady’s journey. And then just seeing how it’s grown. I mean, just most viewership ever. So I would say Angel Reese. I like the young lady, Caitlin, I’ll be excited to see what she does on the next level.

Professional-wise, oh man, it’s just so many amazing players. My wife’s favorite player is Delle Donne. And so, I got a funny story. So, we actually watched the DC games or whatever and my son, it was last year, so he was about two years old at the time, so he watches, he’s watching. So, I go to meet the team and he’s with me and we do the circle, introduce yourself to everybody. He runs up to Delle Donne and she picks him up because he remembered who she was.

Dave Zirin:

That is sweet.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yeah. So, Delle Donne. Asia Wilson. Asia Wilson. Those are my two favorite players also.

Dave Zirin:

Awesome. That’s your go-to.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yes.

Dave Zirin:

How would you do in today’s WNBA and would your style of play be any different?

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Oh, man. Oh, yeah, I would crush it. My style, I feel like I was one of the first big guards that could put the ball on the floor, athleticism, could handle the basketball. So, I think my game would translate really well. Yeah, because I understood how to get to the basket and pass, but it would just be different now because the fun part of being different is that, man, I’ll probably be going up against more women my size at the position.

Because for me, I was always one of the bigger ones playing the three slot, so I had a really good post-up game. I could take advantage of that. But I realized the game changed probably 2010, that was my last season. And I was San Antonio and I’m facing Candace Parker, my fellow Tennessee alumni, and she caught the ball and I’m behind her and next thing you know, before I could blink, she had gone around me and scored. And I was like, “Whoa, the game has changed, the athleticism.”

Dave Zirin:

No volunteer love on that play.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

No.

Dave Zirin:

I think you’d be like Breanna Stewart with a jet-pack. That’s how I picture you in today’s game.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Yeah. She’s an amazing player. I ran into her, I went to the Brooklyn Library the other day with my other friend from Yukon to see the Jay-Z exhibition. And I come outside-

Dave Zirin:

Everybody’s talking about it.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

It was amazing. I come outside and she’s there. So, we were all chopping it up.

Dave Zirin:

That’s amazing. What a window into a day in the life in Brooklyn. Just Breanna Stewart and Chamique Holdsclaw chopping it up at the Jay-Z exhibit. How can people keep up with you? And thank you so much for your time.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Oh, thank you, Dave. Keeping up with me. Whoa. My God. I keep a low social profile, but I would say Instagram, I’m trying to get better to post about when I’m out speaking or with my family, to share what I’m doing. So, my Instagram is chold1. And if you need me otherwise you can find Tandem Sports in the Washington DC area and I work with them, [inaudible 00:26:21] and then Jim Tanner took over. So, I’ve been with them since ’99, so it’s like family. So, you could always contact them if you need me.

Dave Zirin:

Chamique Holdsclaw, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports. Really appreciate it.

Chamique Holdsclaw:

Thanks, Dave. You take care of yourself. Enjoy the rest of your summer.

Dave Zirin:

And now some choice words. Okay, look, in left politics, there is a philosophy called revolutionary defeatism. It means calling for your own country to lose when engaging in an imperialist war. Such a call, never popular, is essential towards the task of building internationalism and fighting the thirst for conquest. It’s a noble call whose root lies in the desire to end human suffering.

Well, in the US of A right now, we are seeing something that I think is best described as reactionary defeatism. This is the call for the United States to lose in its various rivalries with other countries, but not out of some thirst to end nationalism or war, not at all. Instead, this twisted and bizarrely fantastical view is that the United States has given too many rights to too many people and we are now as a result, losers. For them, this country like Germany in the 1920s before the rise of the Nazis, represents a hedonistic hellscape and any humiliation on the world stage is not only welcome, it is to be cheered.

Reactionary defeatism was on full display when the United States Women’s National team was bounced from the 2023 World Cup. Their loss was surprising, but not necessarily shocking. While the US was going for its unprecedented third straight World Cup, many other countries have made giant strides in their development of women’s soccer, reaching and training players beyond the middle class pipeline that dominates in the United States. Also, our team was an uneasy mix of experience and youth and their coach, Vlatko Andonovski, engaged in substitution patterns best described as bewildering. So, they lost. Not expected, but it happens.

But in the aftermath, what has both surprised and shocked many, although this has been brewing for some time, is the utter glee with which this country’s reactionary right wing has responded. They have acted like the ouster of the US women was greater than if the Super Bowl was held on Christmas Day. Many commentators on the mainstream sports channels have actually struggled to explain why a section of this country, led by a vocally joyous Donald Trump, cheered their defeat. Many of the same patriotic souls who wanted Colin Kaepernick and USWNT icon Meghan Rapinoe destroyed for kneeling during the anthem in 2016, loved seeing the red, white and blue go down.

Look, there is much to unpack here in this backwards exercise of reactionary defeatism, beyond the obvious that politics clearly no longer stop at the water’s edge. The anger, we are told by the Fox News commentators and the centrist press, is because the team is polarizing as a result of being too woke. Although, no one seems able to say just exactly what that means.

Beneath the buzzwords, the hatred comes down to two things, both equally stupid. The first is that they can’t stand Rapinoe and assume that the team is made up with a bunch of Rapinoe carbon copies. An absurd charge if you know anything about the actual human beings that played on this team. They also can’t stand, although they won’t say it explicitly, choosing in cowardly fashion to hide behind that word woke, that this team organized and won equal pay. Equal pay they more than deserved by any metric. The US women’s national team is the most successful, popular soccer squad this country has ever produced. And at minimum they deserved parity in their compensation.

Their great sin when you dig in, is that these are women who refuse to be controlled and sit in the corner. Because of that, Donald Trump, an abuser and assaulter of women finds them intolerable. His followers are along for the ride because it valorizes their misogyny. Yet, their joy at seeing the women fail also destroys a central right wing election talking point. The GOP is openly running against transgender existence by saying that they will, quote, “Protect women’s sports from biological males.” But here they are mocking women athletes and cheering their loss. They have revealed themselves, they don’t want to protect women’s sports, they hate women’s sports, because if we want to get real, they hate women or at the very least women who dare not know their place.

The US women’s national team and especially the legendary Rapinoe, do not need the support of parasitical hypocrites who only care about women’s sports if it advances their cause to eradicate trans kids. But this is what reactionary defeatism is all about. They want the United States team to lose, because they want to divide and demoralize people as part of an effort to radically remake this country. They want the United States to lose because they want everything Megan Rapinoe, female, queer, anti-racist, pro-choice, outspoken, everything that Megan Rapinoe represents, they want it to wither away, but they don’t realize Megan has an army and it’s an army that win or lose, will not be marching backwards.

Professor Abdullah Al-Arian, thank you so much for joining us, sir.

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Good to be here.

Dave Zirin:

So, Professor Al-Arian, usually on the show we have people who dedicate their whole lives to the study of sports. Your academic history is so much more eclectic than just sports, and yet you focused on editing and writing this volume Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game. Why did you choose that to be your project?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

I mean, for one thing, I think just being a fan of the game as somebody who’s been watching it my entire life, but especially recently seeing the intersections … I mean, in a lot of ways, following in your footsteps, Dave, with seeing the intersections of sports and politics, seeing the way that it affects societies in this region in the same way that you’ve studied it in the United States and elsewhere.

So, I think that there was certainly a pull there for me and for many of the researchers and scholars who contributed to this volume, who’ve seen the same thing. That this is not just a game or not just a sport, but something that actually has a much deeper impact in society. And so, it connects in a lot of ways to the bigger questions that I’ve been looking at my whole life, going back to my days as a PhD student. Which is thinking about social movements, thinking about change, thinking about challenges to the hegemonic or powerful orders that govern states and societies in this region.

Dave Zirin:

Over a decade ago we had what is called the Arab Spring. How much did the Arab Spring affect or shape your thoughts about pursuing this book?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Yeah. I mean, I was actually in the middle of writing my PhD dissertation at the time that the protests broke out. I was conducting a lot of my field work in Egypt at the time, but of course, I was watching those events like everybody else, unfolding on the news and on social media in real time.

And one of the things that we noted at the time was the impact that organized groups that were not necessarily seen as politicized beforehand, right? So we’re not just talking about groups like the Muslim Brotherhood who everybody of course, expected to step into the breach that was left behind by these secular dictatorships. But really thinking about other kinds of social collectivities, things like football ultras. Right? So, the fan groups that usually had a space to gather and to mobilize in support of their favorite team, they would gather in stadiums, they would rally around … The equivalent of tailgating, I guess, in the US, where they would rally and gather in public spaces ahead of games, after games.

And the way that they mobilized in the service of a budding revolution I think was something that a lot of people took note of at the time. And it’s taken a decade to really think about maybe some of the long-term impact of that, which is the way that even cultural forces can offer avenues by which people can try to impact change within their own societies. And so, I think that among many other factors helped us look at what are the impact that fan groups or these ultras can have.

And I think it’s quite the statement when you actually look at what’s going on in Egypt now, which of course had a military coup in 2013. So, now we’re actually a decade on from the end of that short-lived revolution to one of the most repressive systems really anywhere in the region right now. And it’s a testament to the role that those football ultras had, that they were permanently disbanded as soon as the coup took power. And in fact, fans were banned from stadiums until 2018. But even to this day, fan groups as a collectivity, as an organized force are not allowed to attend matches. And so, I think that says a lot about the regime’s continued fear even of just ordinary football fans, in terms of the impact that they could possibly have in challenging the power of this regime.

Dave Zirin:

Well, if someone had said fan groups, for anywhere in the world, frankly, before the Arab Spring, you imagine fights, you imagine a lot of inter-scene battles. And some of the ugliest examples at the former Yugoslavia, you even saw them activated for highly reactionary ends.

How much did it surprise, shock, invigorate you to see these clubs actually come into their own politically in Tahrir Square? And then of course, the regime, as you said, were very aware of their political import to the upheaval.

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of ways there’s so many different elements to it. On the one hand, of course, it’s the idea that you can translate things that are effectively just an expression of fan support. Right? So, we’ve seen them, of course, fighting one another, different fan groups. Unfortunately, it’s an ugly side of the game that we’ve also looked at in terms of how fan groups interact and engage with each other, sometimes through violence or through these mobilized campaigns.

But the way that then all of those differences were set aside in the service of something bigger. And a lot of their interactions previously in terms of dealing with police brutality, dealing with the crackdowns, dealing with even the infiltration of their groups by undercover police operatives. All of that came into play in terms of them being more seasoned, more experienced and confronting a lot of those same things as they were unfolding in those critical moments in weeks leading to the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt.

But even later, so years later in a place like Algeria when you had a similar campaign emerge, one of the interesting things is that a lot of the football fan culture was universalized. So, it wasn’t any longer about just a few groups. It was actually about taking some of the fan chants and repurposing them against an aging dictator who was trying to run for his fifth or sixth presidential term and trying to get him to step down. This was an aging president who hadn’t even been seen in public. In fact, when all of the politicians came to profess their fealty to him, they did it to a portrait of him because the real version was simply incapacitated.

Dave Zirin:

Amazing.

Abdullah Al-Arian:

And so, this is the kind of thing that the fans were protesting against. Many of them, of course being really young and not having known a single other political alternative throughout their entire lives. And so, we saw even the tifo displays, these are those massive banners that are usually unfurled in a stadium in the beginning stages of a match. And yet, we saw them in the public squares.

We saw the same kind of graffiti and street art. The songs that were repurposed. All of them taking things that were very much a part of football fandom and then translating them into things that would be seen as protest art and protest expressions.

Dave Zirin:

It’s impossible to speak about the Middle East monolithically, as you well know, but we’re also doing this interview in the immediate aftermath of the Women’s World Cup. That’s when we’re airing right now. And so, even though we can’t speak about the Middle East as a one thing, where are we with the development of the women’s game in the region?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Well, I mean, I think it certainly has a long way to go in comparison to what we’ve seen globally. I will say, I think it’s been really fun seeing yet again, another Moroccan national team exceed all expectations. So, I think that was really thrilling, not just obviously for Morocco, but for people across this region who now see specifically an opportunity for the women’s national team, make its own impact in an international tournament.

And so, I think despite the defeat to France, again another defeat to France, the same as the men suffered in the semifinal in the last men’s World Cup that we still see, I think, tremendous momentum. I think there were a lot of incredible stories about different members of the team, seeing profiles of them. Of course, you had that story about the first woman in hijab being allowed to compete. Something that wasn’t previously allowed and is still not allowed in most of the European domestic leagues, especially in France.

So, I think there are a number of important impact statements there. And at the same time, of course there’s still quite a long way to go when we think about what’s been happening in Saudi Arabia, where the men’s game has been taking off in part artificially through this massive injection of hundreds of millions of dollars, at the same time that they’ve announced the establishment of a women’s national team, but that hasn’t really seen the same kind of impact.

Dave Zirin:

Yeah. As we look around the Middle East, my eyes often turn to Palestine. What role does soccer play and can we look at it differently or judge it differently whether in Gaza or the West Bank?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Yeah. I mean, it obviously has a really deep and rich history there that goes back decades, really to the era of British colonial rule. The same way it was introduced in much of this region was through the era of colonialism, whether by the British or the French. In the case of Palestine, it was the British who established the earliest leagues. And it’s been part and parcel of Palestinian society in the face of all of the various challenges that they faced, from obviously the denial of their own national rights to their being subjugated under both ethnic cleansing to the apartheid regime and occupation that are currently reigning over all of these territories.

And so, in that sense, the obstacles that they face have been tremendous from even fielding a national team, right? Not being able to even have practices of players who are based in Gaza, who are basically in what is effectively an open air prison, where they’re not allowed to leave to the West Bank. Which, of course, is completely cut off through the series of checkpoints that make it almost impossible to be able to organize in any meaningful way.

And so, we’re seeing a national team that really doesn’t have any of the facilities, let alone even the freedom of movement that’s necessary to be able to actually compete. And yet, at the same time, there’s still a team. It still competes. It’s often been hosted in foreign stadiums in the event that some of the players can get clearance to travel. And I think it continues to exist as a symbol of some of the forms of resistance and mobilization against the occupation. In terms of when you actually see it compete, quite often even in stadiums where they’re competing against the home team, that you’ll actually see that most of the home fans are cheering on the Palestinian team because of what that signifies.

We saw lots of outpouring of support throughout the World Cup. I mean, they were unofficially, maybe, the 33rd team at the last World Cup, in part because it was held in the region. And so, you saw the crowds coming in and waving their Palestinian flags, in part as a means of demonstrating that solidarity for a team that doesn’t really have the same kinds of opportunities as many of the others.

Dave Zirin:

The World Cup in Qatar was, of course, held up to tremendous criticism in terms of how it was organized, the labor issues, everything. I also feel like those of us, myself included, who looked at it through that lens, missed part of the story. What did it mean to have the World Cup in Qatar?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Well, I mean, I think for one thing, certainly a lot of those criticisms were definitely justified and very much part of the story. Right? So, there’s certainly questions about, how do you reconcile what it means for populations in a region that clearly has a immense passion for the game and sees it as an outlet to mobilize in part, as I mentioned, in opportunities that don’t really exist quite often? And at the same time reconciling that with some of the serious questions that it ultimately raised.

And I think there was an attempt to try to draw that balance in a way by recognizing what this means for people locally in this region, people who are given an opportunity to travel to a World Cup, that may never come again, when we consider the fact that the next World Cup is in the US, Canada, Mexico. With the US, we know everything about the immigration policies there and what it means for fans, let’s say from Iran, let alone maybe from some of the other countries in the region that wouldn’t be able necessarily to cheer on their own teams.

And I think also seeing the cross-national solidarities, I mean, I think that was one of the most incredible things was the way in which people really connected over football by being able to … Bandwagoning, I know is usually seen as a pejorative. In this sense, I think it was actually really quite a scene to see everybody getting behind Morocco. Right? So, they were the last team from this region that were still in it. And everybody picking up the Morocco colors and going to their matches. And those were some of the most incredible scenes that I’ve seen. In addition to, of course, like I said, the solidarity that was expressed with Palestine at every single match, really from beginning to end. In a way that, again, would probably be much more confronting a clampdown in any other circumstance. But in this case, it seemed to actually be given that space.

And I think the real questions that it poses in the end is, what is the takeaway? What is going to be the long-term impact of this type of mobilization? Is it just a one-off thing that happens because you’ve got this major tournament here? Or, is it the building of solidarities and networks and identities that are likely to sustain into the future? And so, I think there’s certainly a lot of hope that that’s where this goes.

Dave Zirin:

You’ve been so generous with your time, professor. Just a couple more questions. Is there a program, a soccer program that we should keep our eye on for reasons political or reasons on the pitch, that maybe we’re not looking at right now in the Middle East?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Well, I mean, I think everyone’s talking about it, so it deserves mention, but I think what the state of Saudi Arabia is doing certainly deserves more scrutiny than it’s probably getting. I think, obviously when you see major players, not just Cristiano Ronaldo, but then this past summer, everyone from Karim Benzema to N’Golo Kanté, to Sadio Mané, to many, many others who’ve all decided to leave behind careers. In some cases, these are players who are in their peak, to go to sign for a league that nobody has ever heard of, that nobody watches and making 10 times the salaries that they were getting before.

I mean, it could be a flash in the pan thing. We saw it in China, I think about a decade ago, where they tried to make this huge splash on the global soccer market, buying all these players, bringing them to China to play, and then it fizzled. The Saudis, of course, are saying that that’s not what’s happening here and that this is part of a long-term strategic plan to diversify all of that oil revenue into these big projects.

And of course, when you deal in the realm of culture, there’s a lot to be said about what this means in terms of trying to sportswash potentially the reputation of a Saudi crown prince, who of course, as we all very well know, has been responsible for so many atrocities in the region and really beyond. And I think that this is really where the focus should be in terms of what this actually means, not just for the sport.

And again, I think there is sometimes an unfair singling out. What the Saudis are doing is in many ways a logical continuation of the corporatization of sports. Again, all the things that you’ve been writing about for so many years, Dave, but thinking about the role of these private equity firms in terms of what they’re doing to sports and making it really out of reach from fans. And in this case, we’re seeing it on a much more industrial scale, and I think that’s worth keeping an eye on that at least going forward.

Dave Zirin:

Absolutely. Last thing, your next project, what should we be looking for?

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Well, there’s a few things I’m working on, but a lot of it is tangled with the same kinds of questions of dealing with social movement. So, I’m looking at the legacies of different religious activist trends across the Arab world. I will always continue to follow football and see the impact that it’s having in society, and so, hopefully there’ll be other avenues to continue the work that we’ve done with this book and thinking about the role of culture more generally. I know you’re a big film guy, Dave.

Dave Zirin:

Yeah.

Abdullah Al-Arian:

I’m thinking a lot about a course that I teach called empire and film, and thinking about ways to be able to perhaps present that in book form, but that’s well into the future.

Dave Zirin:

Absolutely. My goodness, where do you even get started? I had five movies flicker through my head as soon as you said that. Well, yeah, this has been terrific. Professor Abdullah Al-Arian, the book is called Football in the Middle East: State, Society, and the Beautiful Game. It’s a must read. Thanks so much for joining us on Edge of Sports.

Abdullah Al-Arian:

Thank you, Dave. Appreciate it.

Dave Zirin:

Well, that’s all for this week’s show. Thank you so much to Chamique Holdsclaw. Thank you so much to Abdullah Al-Arian. Thank you to everybody on the staff here at The Real News Network. For everybody out there listening, please stay frosty. You’re not going to believe next week’s show, just you wait. We are out of here. Peace.

Speaker 5:

Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories and struggles that you care about most. And we need your help to keep doing this work. So please, tap your screen now, subscribe and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity forever.

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